Transcript:

Lova

Welcome to the Impact Talks Podcast. Today, we have a cool guest with us today, Ynzo, introduce yourself and for which company do you work for?

 

Ynzo

Hi. Yes, it’s great to be here. Thanks for that. My name is Ynzo van Zanten.

 

Ynzo

I’m the Choco evangelist of Tony’s Chocolonely, a Dutch choco company that’s trying to change the cocoa industry from within to make sure that chocolate becomes 100 percent slavery-free. So that’s our mission. And my role as an evangelist is to simply spread our values towards the consumers of other businesses to make people more aware of the issue in the cocoa industry, but also to show the way we want to change the industry from within and also mostly to inspire other organizations to change their ways and hopefully also consumers to change their buying behaviors.

 

Ynzo

So that is my role within the company.

 

Lova

Ok, so I’m super interested in specifically more, I guess. First, let’s go into the background of the company because it’s growing a lot. And then I would also love to know kind of your background, but so how big are you guys and how many countries are you active and how global are you?

 

Ynzo

Right. So we’re I would say we’re small and big at the same time. So because even though we became the market leader in the Netherlands in chocolate in a very short timeframe, we launched our first bars in 2005 and as a business started picking up in the last seven or eight years. And we do about a 70 million euro turnover and we’re available now in Holland, Belgium, Scandinavia, Finland, Germany, France, the UK and the US, and some exotic places like Dubai, Japan, and Taiwan.

 

Ynzo

And that sounds big.

 

Ynzo

But on the grand scheme of things, if you look at the total cocoa that is bought in the whole world and our part in that, I mean, we now work together with about 6600 farmers in Ghana and Ivory Coast alone. But in those two countries, there are more than two and a half million farms that grow cocoa. So there’s a long way to go for us, we are a drop in the ocean, if you look at the total industry that we want to change from within, but we’re working hard on that.

 

Lova

And how do You fit into a company? How did you start? What is your background? How did you get recruited or did you just join it?

 

Ynzo

So I ages go… let me go back in my personal nutshell, I studied economics in Groningen, and there I became friends with another guy. And after our university years, he first started working for Heineken and I became a management consultant. And after about five or six years, I literally burned my grey suits and started traveling the world. And during my travels, I ran into a guy, a British guy in Belize who was on holiday.

 

Ynzo

And he told me about a little British company called Innocent Drinks. And they are a company that makes fruit smoothies and now bought by Coke. And it was very inspiring to me. It was fast-moving. It was very sustainable. It was very positive and young. And I brought a business case together with a university friend of mine. And well long story short, we launched Innocent Drinks in the Benelux and ran that together as country managers for about four years, five, almost five years.

 

Ynzo

And in the end, we got this entrepreneurial urge again to do different things because we were growing so fast. And for us, it was slightly too much at the end being led by the British. So we decided to sell our stocks and go our way again. I became an independent consultant in the field of strategy, sustainability, and communication. And that friend of mine, after about two years search of what he wanted to do, he bought the minority share and then the majority share in a company called Tony’s.

 

Ynzo

So that is the chief chocolate officer, Henk Jan Beltman.

 

Ynzo

And from day one that he took over at Tony’s, I became involved as an external advisor. So I set up the whole brand values and the HR handbook, all that part. And I always used to run the quarterly meetings as a facilitator, et cetera, et cetera. So I knew the team inside and out, but I wasn’t officially on the payroll of Tony’s. And then about four or five years ago, Henk Jan gave me a call and asked, Ynzo, you’re busy?

 

Ynzo

I said, Yeah, is that you want a job? I said, no. And then we got to talk about the fact that at Tony’s, we don’t do any paid media. So it’s always been word of mouth. And the mouth used to be well, Henk Jan, our former CEO, Eva, our value chain bookie, and sometimes the people that would do marketing at Tony’s, but it became almost a full-time job doing in that way.

 

Ynzo

So, Henk Jan asked me to come on board as the Choco evangelist or the chief evangelist of Tony’s to have somebody that is well then part-time but not full-time involved in spreading those values of Tony’s.

 

Ynzo

So in a sense, my job is that some companies would call it the spokesperson or the word for in Dutch. But we say that everybody at Tony’s needs to be the spokesperson of Tony’s. And also the job is slightly different because it’s one of the channels to also just engage other organizations and consumers. So I tend to say that we communicate on-pack, which is our packaging, which is our brand story and individuals.

 

Ynzo

It’s online. So we have a social team that’s constantly engaging with people online and it’s on stage and that’s my part. So there’s a lot of conferences, there’s a lot of podcasts, a lot of interviews that I do, which is part of being a spokesperson, but also, well, broader and also different in a certain sense.

 

Ynzo

So that is my job and how I got involved with Tony’s.

 

Ynzo

And in the meanwhile, a couple of years ago, I also was head of people and culture. So that’s what some people would call the HR department at Tony’s. So I’ve been around the blog within and outside of Tony’s for the last years.

 

Lova

super interesting!

 

Lova

A lot of terms packed here, but my interest mostly fell… Well, I’ll start with the culture and the HR, because you said that you have laid out that, one of the things that scale-up, I mean myself as well as big changes happened in the company, there’s so much trouble happening in HRs, especially when you make big jumps, doubling a team over summer. That’s something that happened here. It was quite hard to establish something, which I always look up to people with more experience.

 

Lova

So where were the first steps, especially coming, being a country manager for Innocent and everything? How then you now,  restarted with this new company and you were laying out the HR principles. What were you exactly doing?

 

Ynzo

Right.

 

Ynzo

I mean, honestly, the first thing we did is to realize that HR in itself might be the lamest word you can imagine because human resources to me have always sounded like the most dehumanized word you can imagine. Right, is if you could turn humans into resources as if you want to turn humans into resources like tin, copper, lead, etc.. So the first thing we did, we tend to do at both industries but also Tony’s Chocolonely is to get rid of the words.

 

Ynzo

So, at Tony’s, we call it people and culture. And I think those are the two pillars that are so essential in that part. And it’s also it means it’s a lot more forward-looking proactive kind of thing than in my experience, where human resources tend to have been over the last decades.

 

Ynzo

For me, it sometimes feels like a very reactive part. Whilst at Tony’s, it feels like it is the one team that is not working in the company, but it’s working on the company. So it’s forward-looking at how to create and establish a company culture and maintain a company culture that makes sure that, well, in my opinion, culture and company culture has always been that the invisible glue between the separate parts of the company. Right. It’s the lines that connect the people within the company that makes sure that together you are more than the sum of the parts.

 

Ynzo

So it has to do for us with making sure that there’s a well, let me put it like this.

 

Ynzo

One of our core values at the company is making you smile. So you’re working on a very serious subject, which you need to make sure that for the team, it’s the most fun experience that you can have. I mean, you spend more time at work than you tend to spend at home and in an awake state. And so you better make working on that serious subject as fun as possible. So make sure that when people come to the office on Monday they actually come to the office skipping of happiness, so it tends to evolve around three pillars within the culture.

 

Ynzo

I would say there’s a personal purpose that you have as a person, which I would normally tend to call meaning in English. So what is your personal meaning within that company purpose that you have? And we try to really connect those two things. There is a sense of personal growth so that you can actually achieve and grow as a person and as a soul within a company, and it tends to evolve around personal relationships. So, for example, a very clear ritual that we have at Tony’s is our lunch.

 

Ynzo

I mean, we don’t lunch with a melted cheese behind your laptop to be able to continue working. No, lunch is an institutional thing. So you come down, you sit at lunch with the people around you. We have the most amazing lunches made by Titsi, our cook at Tony’s, to make sure that you actually relate with people, see how they’re doing, see what they’re doing and what they’re up to from all different teams and all different places within the company.

 

Ynzo

So it tends to evolve around these rituals, the fun things. And sometimes for people, it sounds like, you know, the fun things we do are just fun things. But I disagree. If you keep connecting fun things consistently, your whole job and hopefully, therefore, your life becomes more fun.

 

Ynzo

So this is the rituals that we do.

 

Ynzo

But it’s also the symbols, that you have. Those are the visual things that you have. So everything at Tony’s is utterly tonified.

 

Ynzo

Our tennis table is actually completely branded Tony’s and says ping pong on both sides. It’s just a stupid fun thing that we have that makes everything. Well, it makes you smile, which is important, I think.

 

Lova

And what are the second and the third pillar?

 

Ynzo

So it’s your personal purpose, so that’s your meaning, how does your meaning connect to the purpose of the company? Our purpose is first and foremost within the company and in these times where sometimes there’s an exceeding amount of purpose washing

 

Ynzo

I would say ours is as authentic as it comes. So for us, our purpose is 100 percent slave-free chocolate and that is first and foremost in everything that we do. For us, our financial success isn’t an end goal. I mean, don’t get me wrong, why commercial is hell! but it is a means towards a goal.

 

Ynzo

The goal is crystal clear, 100 percent slavery-free chocolate. And in everything we do, we relate to our purpose. We relate to our mission.

 

Ynzo

So in the question, we could do, we could say, so how does that help us become closer, get closer to our mission? We also look at that.

 

Lova

Where did the mission come from? Because we were just talking about laying out the practicalities of HR. But…

 

Ynzo

yeah,

 

Lova

I can imagine, you know, the founder didn’t just come up with the idea. Oh, that said, I want to make a chocolate slave-free or something. Maybe like what’s the background behind the mission?

 

Ynzo

But then we need to go back. Yeah exactly, we then need to go back to the day to the why we were launched because, in the early 2000s, there were journalists from an investigative Dutch television show looking at the reality behind certain food marketing. It’s called “Keuringsdienst van waarde” which is like an equivalent of the 60 Minutes of food or the Food CIA. And they saw a very tiny article on page 12 of a newspaper that spoke about child slaves in Mali, being sold to work in the cocoa industry.

 

Ynzo

And they were like they were flabbergasted. They were like, how can this not be front-page news? How can this not be a full-page article? So they started investigating and realized that there’s a very bitter reality in the cocoa industry, which has to do with more than two million children alone in Ghana and Ivory Coast working under illegal circumstances, of which tens of thousands work in situations that we consider modern slavery, which is ridiculous in it, in the industry, in a value chain of a product that we all eat almost daily in Western society.

 

Ynzo

So they wanted to shed much more light on this. But the cocoa industry wasn’t very open and prone to speak to them. So long story short, in the end, they just simply launched their own chocolate company to change the system from within to show that it could be done with them.

 

Lova

Who is them? Who was it?

 

Ynzo

So this is “Keuringsdienst van waarde” a television show with the journalist “teun van de keuken”

 

Lova

Oh. So the television show launched their own chocolate company?

 

Ynzo

Exactly. Exactly. So Tony’s Chocolonely is derived from the first name of Tony, the international version of Tony’s, and Chocolonely for our lonely battle in the chocolate industry. So he simply launched his chocolate brand to show that it could be done differently. And that is Tony’s Chocolonely, which was launched in 2005. So you could say some people sometimes ask us, so where did your purpose come from when you were a company?

 

Ynzo

It’s been the other way around. Our company was launched, was born out of this purpose. That was to change the industry from within.

 

Lova

But how can you say… this is extremely interesting. So I don’t know how much you were involved with that, but how are you just like that and train what I can imagine being a very traditional market?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, I wasn’t involved in that at that moment. Nobody was at Tony’s because this was launched from and within the production company of the television show.

 

Lova

Yeah,

 

Ynzo

 and it is. And we still see that it’s hard to change such a huge and a traditional and slightly rusted down industry from within as a small company.

 

Lova

because it is still happening like, is it getting better, or is it there today?

 

Ynzo

It is still there today, unfortunately. And in absolute figures, it’s even become worse over the last two decades because there’s more demand for chocolate. So you could say in relative terms it’s diminished, but in absolute terms, it has even increased. So it means, even more importantly, for us to make that difference and showed that it can be done differently and inspire other companies to follow suit. It is still there. Today is there still more than two million children working in illegal circumstances. Today there are still more than 30,000 children and grown-ups working in situations that we consider modern slavery, which is ridiculous.

 

Lova

Yeah, but then ok. So let’s shift back to the practicality of it. So the company starts and then obviously, I’m assuming it’s started growing because people started buying, so teams now started growing, so, ok, the first question that pops up in the whole thing, why not start as a charity? Why does it have to be a commercial company? And then how do you onboard people that for such a mission? But then explain oh, no, but it is a commercial company.

 

Ynzo

I don’t think they are mutually exclusive, honestly, so that is an important message, I think. So, I think you can be a commercial company and have a very clear purpose to change the world. We consider that the only way we could actually change this system is by showing the system from within, that it can be done differently. So we are a commercial company. We have shareholders. We have very clear KPIs and how we want to grow, where we want to grow to and we need to make a financial profit because we are convinced that we can only make that impact year on year again if we are simply commercially viable.

 

Ynzo

So we have three very clear performance indicators and one has always been a 50 percent year on year growth. The second one has always been a 40 percent gross profit and a third one and that is where we slightly differ from the rest of the industry has for us always been at least 4 percent net profit, where the rest of the industry is always working towards 20, 25, 30 percent net profit, we think, to divide that that financial success within your value chain.

 

Ynzo

So making sure that the farmers at the beginning of that value chain actually earn a living income and are fairly paid, which we call a living income reference price for the cocoa beans that they grow, that is a much more equal and fair division of that value within the value chain.

 

Lova

But so if everybody striving for 20 percent profits and then you guys are striving for 4 percent, doesn’t that beat the whole purpose of you? I mean, I guess then you. Well, I don’t know exactly how it works, but I’m assuming you’re making less money. So then if another chocolate company looks at you, they think, oh, but, you know, we want 20 percent.

 

Ynzo

But if we grow 50 percent year on year, isn’t that the more interesting number?

 

Ynzo

Isn’t it in the end, the absolute amount of euros that you have in your bank account as a commercial company, that might be more interesting than a relative amount, isn’t it a note about doing business where only you profit in your value chain and other people are actually working in situations like modern slavery? So I think for me, as from the human perspective, it is absolutely unacceptable to be in a business where people are actually suffering on the other end of the value chain.

 

Lova

I agree.

 

Ynzo

 And I think those things are much more important than financial figures on your bank account today.

 

Lova

But so when it got started, how many years after it got started, did you start joining in?

 

Ynzo

 Me personally?

 

Lova

 yeah,  when you started writing the plans that you said.

 

Ynzo

so let me think back, I think overall that must have been about 10 years ago. I think.

 

Lova

So that is …

 

Ynzo

Because I got involved …

 

Lova

into the inception of the idea.

 

Ynzo

Exactly. Exactly.

 

Ynzo

So it is about five, six years into the start of Tony’s when Henk Jan Beltman as a chief chocolate officer first took over the minority share and then the majority share.

 

Lova

Ok, and so you walk in and what do you see? How big was the team? What were they struggling with?

 

Ynzo

I think the first time I was got involved was when the team was about five, or six people I think.

 

Lova

 Wait, they were five years old as a company, but there were only five people.

 

Ynzo

Yeah,

 

Lova

How? Because obviously when you look from the outside, it looks so big, so then you assume, which is, by the way, what happens all the time when we run our events, you see all these successes and they have all exponential growth. And somehow I don’t know why, when you look at Tony’s, you also think, oh, my God, this is exponential growth.

 

Lova

But yet now it’s like, oh, five years later into the inception, there were only five people.

 

Lova

How…. why was it only …

 

Ynzo

Ok, But if you take the technical term of exponentiality, you think back from today and then you end up at about five people after five years.

 

Ynzo

So if you start with half and you go to one and then to two to four and into eight.

 

Ynzo

So we were I think there in a year, four or five at around that amount of people.

 

Ynzo

And now we’re at about 160 people.

 

Ynzo

So I think that line is more or less exponential.

 

Lova

Yeah, so so actually five people after five years, you would say is a pretty steady and healthy growth?

 

Ynzo

Well, it depends on, No. It depends on where you come from. And for us, you know, growth in a sense isn’t our goal. Our goal of growth isn’t just to grow. Our goal of growth is to make an impact. So for us, growth has to do with making more impact year on year. And it’s been a while.

 

Ynzo

I mean, in the first years we were struggling as a company and only in the last six, seven, eight years have we grown so incredibly fast.

 

Lova

And what changed?

 

Ynzo

 I think the change was when Henk Jan took over as chief chocolate officer. I think then did the whole entrepreneurial side of the business much more accelerated. It was then that we realized that we needed to grow to make that impact, to make sure that we could show the industry that it was a proper, viable business that you could run in the chocolate industry.

 

Lova

But so what were the changes that you saw happen? Because of our experience, it was very much ok, so we could start as a small kind of charity event, give back wherever possible. But then on the other side, it was very much like, yeah, but if we don’t go as big as we can, then nobody will see or hear that these changes are possible and what I’m hearing from you is a very similar thought process.

 

Lova

Like it has to go big just to prove a point.

 

Lova

But then …

 

Ynzo

exactly

 

Lova

Why?

 

Lova

And especially when it’s so impact-oriented…

 

Ynzo

because in the end, you need to show within, and I mean, if you need to show in an old system that you can change towards the new system, but still within the parameters of the old system. So we need to show the chocolate industry, which is a very competitive and commercial industry, that you can change within their parameters, which still has to do with being commercially sound, being on shelves in the supermarkets, being visible.

 

Ynzo

We need, it’s our end goal in our strategies to inspire other companies to act themselves and to take their responsibility when it has to do with human rights when it has to do with eradicating any form of forced child labor within your value chain. And by showing that you can do that, being a very sustainable company, being one of the best employers within the Netherlands, that you can also move within those parameters of the old economy.

 

Lova

Ok, so let’s go a little bit back because obviously, we can talk quite long about the growth and the impact, which I truly believe will eventually happen, uh, because you cannot ignore when it’s being done. So you’re mentioning things like becoming one of the best employers in the Netherlands, as well as walking in when I was five people. How do you go from walking in five people to now one hundred sixty people and these clear culture? Well, I guess shifts or you know, there’s a clear culture that you can see even when you walk into supermarkets and you see everybody’s packages. How do you go from five people to 160 and the best employer, like what are the practicalities of it? Do you write a business plan? Do you go to the CEO and say, hey, like what are the tiny experiments that someone like me with a small team can, you know, really implement in the company?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, and I can imagine the question. The thing is, we always get asked, what is the magic trick? Right. What are the three key things to you, what makes you successful? And I gotta honestly say much of the stuff we have experience has all come from the gut and didn’t have a clear pre-written strategy behind it. So a lot of our growth has been organic.

 

Ynzo

But I would say that if you are looking for the magic wand, I think one of the most important things is this very clear mission that we stand behind, this purpose that we have that is such a huge driver in everything that we do, they can use as an acid test for anything that we do.

 

Ynzo

The second is to realize that your team is key here. So we always say for us it’s two pillars, team and impact. Yes. In the end, it’s making that impact, but it’s by having the most inspired and motivated team that you can imagine. So that’s why there’s so much focus on our team. And often when I speak about what we do within our team and what we do in our company culture, people are sometimes challenged by saying, yeah, but in the end, it’s got to be the sales figures, right?

 

Ynzo

In the end, I got to make a profit. And then you see that often those entrepreneurs, the first thing they cut is the effort, whether it’s financial or time, towards making sure that your team is as good as it is. And I think that should be the other way around. So I always take this quote by Richard Branson, who tends to say, I’m not happy because I’m successful, I’m successful because I’m happy and I don’t put my customers first.

 

Ynzo

I put my employees first because they create happy customers. And I strongly believe in that.

 

Ynzo

So by keeping folks on our team and that doesn’t mean always throwing shitloads of money against it.

 

Ynzo

It has to do with a focus on your team, on those company values that you have on that mission that you have. So it’s always first and foremost and you see that everywhere within our team. And it’s really on focus on each other. You see it in these times, in strange times that we’re all working from home during the Corona happening around us. It’s constantly this focus on the team, on each other. Is everybody ok?

 

Ynzo

How are you doing? Checks, body checks, friendship, love, and empathy around you.

 

Ynzo

So it has to do with focus, I would say one having your purpose. So that is the impact. Side two is that team and making sure that you’re right within the details. I think everybody is so focused on making sure that everything is authentic until the smallest detail.

 

Lova

Yes. So I want to cover a little bit of the whole Corona situation, because obviously with a bigger company, it’s different. But, a little bit later, I guess my question was right now, so what I ask maybe in these type of situations because obviously, culture is very hard to explain, but have you done experiments that were really like pivoting or I can imagine when you’re hiring, we have a recruitment funnel that is almost three weeks long for employees. And in there we test personalities and not specifically their grades or anything. So what were the experiments that you did where you thought, whoa, ok, this is really going to be pivotal or, and what do you do when you know somebody slips through? How do you catch the person that doesn’t live the mission or the vision?

 

Ynzo

Well, I think those are a lot of questions in one. Honestly, I think, yes, onboarding, but onboarding is also such a strange term.

 

Ynzo

But that has also grown organically.

 

Ynzo

I mean, in the last three years, three to four years, we’ve grown from, I have 30 people to 160 or something, so you have to set up some kind of processes for people and we call that in our case, the typical Tony’s time. So for at least one week, you get a deep dive into the background of cocoa, into how you make chocolate, into how we work as a team. You have this body assigned to you that helps you through any technicality.

 

Ynzo

Where can you find the files you need, etcetera… and how do things work within Tony’s and you drink as much coffee with as many Tony’s as you can.

 

Ynzo

You can within a week just have an automatic deep dive into the company culture. That is one. But it’s also about having these four company values that we have.

 

Ynzo

So that has to do with being entrepreneurial, being willful, being outspoken and Tony’s makes you smile to use those as, I don’t know, the bar’s measurements to see how anybody would fit anyhow within it, within the recruitment process. And obviously, with it, I mean, sometimes there’s not a fit and we do this constant check every year, you know, is it still a good fit for where you are within your job?

 

Ynzo

Because it often doesn’t have to do with you being a quote-unquote wrong fit, it also has to do with the company around you evolving and changing. So your job might change more quickly than you could change or maybe you change more quickly than your job does. So there’s a sanity check on you or your job also very often. And within the company, there are people that go sideways, go up ways, go everywhere and it has to be with it just plain sanity check on there as well.

 

Lova

And you do that check every year or every …

 

Ynzo

At least. So you have at least once a year. But we used to have two moments a year that you really had this check. But I think it’s an ongoing process between you and the people you work with around you, your team, anyhow.

 

Lova

Ok, so, just out of curiosity, would you ask them then and what happens if the person says, yeah, I don’t really like it here, my boss sucks or something like…

 

Ynzo

[Laughing]

 

Lova

yeah, how do the conversations go?

 

Ynzo

Oh, it’s a conversation like you would have with anybody else. I mean, there isn’t a very huge rigid structure behind it. You just make sure that at least twice a year you have this chat and this check-up with how you’re doing.

 

Ynzo

And we used to have a rating that was linked with it. We dropped the rating and just to have a sanity check on how are you doing?

 

Ynzo

But we do have what we do, for example, we work with annual goals and we work with quarterly goals for you personally.

 

Ynzo

And we see whether how you set up those goals together with your manager and see how they actually work out every quarter and every year.

 

Ynzo

And I would personally advise people to have this almost on a weekly level so what you are focused on. So that also helps you with your focus. We call those the big threes and we see how that works out and sometimes it doesn’t work out.

 

Ynzo

And then we see how anybody can help you around you to make you reach those goals.

 

Ynzo

But the discussions, the checks that we have are just discussions, literally.

 

Ynzo

You just have a cup of coffee with your manager and or the person that works with you and see how that’s working out.

 

Lova

Why did you try to rate though?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, because it was a bit too rigid in an old school, we felt it just needed a more open discussion. We do have 360 evaluations around the company as well. We also ask input from people around you that you can use in these discussions and see how people can measure up to company values and their own goals and how it works out for them.

 

Lova

Ok, cool. So it’s a pretty much a checkup twice a year maybe to make sure that everybody fits

 

Ynzo

Exactly.

 

Lova

Yeah. And then within the teams, obviously you probably have the lunches and the talks and then things like that happen. Interestingly, you dropped the ratings, though. It’s very interesting that it became just like a discussion. Which kind of shows also a little bit of a rebel spirit against the traditional? um. Yeah, things which are good because that’s obviously within the industry needs.

 

Lova

So, again, back to the start, you walk in,  five people there. What was the kind of the first things you were doing?

 

Ynzo

Now that you shouldn’t ask me, you should Henk Jan ask the question, because he was the entrepreneur walking in and what I did when I saw the team, in the beginning, was work with them to establish those, for example, those core values that we just spoke about.

 

Lova

So you were the facilitator behind those core values?

 

Ynzo

Exactly what we worked. It came and comes still from everybody within Tony’s. I got to tell you, I think things like the core values of a company never stand still, right.

 

Ynzo

You need to always keep evaluating them and see how it works within the time frame that you’re living in as a company at that moment in time.

 

Lova

So, ok, then you were facilitating those processes and they came. Yeah, usually those core values come from the employees or the founding team. So you were pretty much in the next 10 years of that growth facilitating most of it, or were you also part of some pivotal moments that changed the course of the company?

 

Ynzo

Both, I would say, I mean, I was there externally and then internally and I think the biggest pivotal moment that I would name in the last five or 10 years was real this realization that we’re working towards becoming a global movement. I mean, five years ago, I could not imagine speaking to you today, talking about actually literally becoming a global brand.

 

Ynzo

And in the end, for me, it’s not about Tony’s becoming a global brand. It’s about the thought, the thought leadership that we have that the changing the industry from within, and that movement that comes behind it. That is what is changing at the moment. I see that as a very pivotal moment.

 

Lova

 And, maybe an interesting part for me, how do you see Tony’s being, you know, based in the Netherlands? Is that something that is because the Netherlands is very small. So,

 

Ynzo

yeah,

 

Lova

considering the mission

 

Ynzo

or not even the biggest chocolate consumers.

 

Lova

Yeah. So and considering the mission, would you want to be in a place like San Francisco or in…

 

Ynzo

Yeah, but you can’t choose where you’re born. Right. So this is we were simply born in the Netherlands.

 

Ynzo

But that is the reason why we went, for example, the first country we went to outside of the Netherlands was and is the U.S.

 

Lova

 Really?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, yeah. And that is not the most logical step normally from Holland, you would tend to first go to Belgium and Germany, Scandinavia. First was the other way around. We realized that some of the biggest chocolate producers had their headquarters in the U.S. and we figured, if you want to be copied, you need to be noticed, and to be noticed, you better make a sound in the backyard.

 

Ynzo

So that’s why we went to the U.S. and launched in Portland, Oregon, and as a first place outside of the Netherlands.

 

Lova

But, I mean, Oregon doesn’t sound like L.A. or New York. Why?

 

Ynzo

But Oregon is a very food conscious area of the US.

 

Lova

Really?

 

Ynzo

Portland is a city where there are very conscious foodies. Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of early food movement comes from Portland, Oregon.

 

Lova

So you were part of that growth when you were going to the US? What was happening when you first decided to scale there?

 

Ynzo

We launched in Portland, add several natural chains, so these are supermarkets that are focused on very well, for example, organic food, very conscious food, delis, and we launched there same as we would do in any other country, honestly.

 

Ynzo

And also in Holland is a ground-up movement. It’s a lot of reaching out to consumers, reaching out to people that are involved in the food industry, showing this, telling the story at any stage you can find, and grow it from the ground up. And that is how we launch from Portland in the US. So it’s going around with chocolate and telling the story.

 

Lova

But so you guys flew there or did you hire an agent or?

 

Ynzo

 [Laughing] you tend to do … you tend to fly to Portland, Oregon, nowadays. So we have Peter, a Dutch guy who had been living in the U.S. for a long time, who was our sales guy in Portland. But then we simply opened a full organization and company and office in Portland with somebody responsible for marketing, somebody responsible for sales, finance, operations. So it’s a skeleton over a company that was set up in any country that we launch.

 

Ynzo

And then indeed, you approach retailers, you approach the best stores you can find. And but since as I said in the beginning, we have a zero paid media policy, we don’t do any advertising.

 

Ynzo

So it’s finding the right people, finding it right. And newspapers, writers, journalists to get in touch with and talk to these people with about our mission.

 

Lova

So, you don’t pay at all for any ads, also not …

 

Ynzo

At all. Zero paid media,

 

Lova

But also not like Facebook ads or Google ads?

 

Ynzo

No, zero paid media. 

 

Lova

Isn’t that like starting a business with the kind of like, you know, one hand tied down or something like that? Isn’t that hard…

 

Ynzo

Uh, it might be harder, but we think our story needs more than the 20 seconds of attention that you would get in an ad or the five seconds that you would get in a newspaper or a magazine. For us, it’s going directly into this longer-term relationship with consumers, with organizations, and that takes a bit more time. We might not be the easy path, but we felt it was the path that merits that it has to do with how we work, with the making the impact.

 

Lova

Do you know a company called Charity Water because they released…

 

Ynzo

Yeah. 

 

Lova

that documentary videos as Facebook ads and went viral. Did you see that?

 

Ynzo

No, I haven’t seen that, but I do know charity,

 

Lova

so, yeah, but what they did is they also don’t advertise that much, I think, but they have this documentary video that was like 20 or 30 minutes about the founder and why he believes in clean water and everything.

 

Ynzo

But have you seen our documentary?

 

Lova

No, I haven’t. I thought,

 

Ynzo

Oh, there you go. So that’s documentary that was online.

 

Ynzo

And if you become a serious friend of Tony’s on our website, there’s a page with a whole toolbox where also you can find a documentary.

 

Lova

So it’s Tony’s…

 

Ynzo

And it’s been aired on national television in Holland.

 

Lova

What is the website then? Tonyschocolonely

 

Ynzo

 Tonyschocolonely.com

 

Lova

Ok, so the way you spell this, Tonyschocolonely

 

Ynzo

Seriously,

 

Lova

 It is more for the listeners.

 

Ynzo

So it’s Tonyschocolonely.com

 

Lova

Great, and I am on the website right now. So where do I scroll for the documentary?

 

Ynzo

 You become a serious friend. That is the most important step.

 

Lova

Where is the serious…

 

Ynzo

On our website, you become a serious friend, is that consumers that are spreading our mission amongst their friends and family, for those are in our core of brand ambassadors, I would say.

 

Lova

So you have to click on our mission and our…

 

Ynzo

Let me have a look together. So it’s our mission, no “Doe mee” in Dutch, let me switch to the English website so we can do this in English. It’s “join in” and then let’s be serious friends. You join us, become a serious friend. And once you’re logged in, you can find our documentary, which you can see.

 

Ynzo

But I would also recommend people to have a screening with their friends at this moment. I would say have it from your home with your friends at the same time while you’re munching down on a bar of chocolate.

 

Ynzo

And then so as serious friends, you can watch a documentary. But it’s you can also, I think, find it on Google Play and other pay-TV sites. If you want to watch it for free, you need to log in as a serious friend.

 

Lova

How come it’s behind “sign up” well. Why do people have to sign and why is it not like on the website?

 

Ynzo

Well, I don’t know what the reasoning behind that was.

 

Ynzo

I think in the beginning it was simply because it was a documentary. It was on pay-TV. It’s been aired on national television on Holland a couple of times. So there was visible and also after the fact and I think left and right, you might find it also directly.

 

Ynzo

But what we want to do is engage these people and ask them to join in. And that’s why we have it in our toolkit as a serious friend.

 

Lova

Clear. But you’ve never thought about running those types of things as the document, sorry, as paid ads because I can imagine those things going viral, like…

 

Ynzo

Yeah, but again, we have a zero paid media policy, so we don’t do pay that.

 

Lova

Yeah, I guess so.

 

Lova

Note interesting. But and I guess it works because you’re growing so you just have to be more strict about who you reach out to and how you portray yourself.

 

Ynzo

This is exactly my answer when people ask me, so does it work, I said, well apparently it does. Yes. We became the market leader.

 

Lova

Yeah, true. I like the focus on the mission as well. It’s on the main website right away. So you can only see that, I am interested now. So I know the mission, everything. I have not gone into the background yet, but before we do, I’m still interested in it, now it’s the 25th of March 2020. So obviously Corona has gotten pretty bad in the Netherlands.

 

Lova

How especially… like from our perspective it was like from one week to another, things were changing now on our side were mostly digital already since January, which was a policy that we’ve been adapting to for the last, I think, nine months, and officially rolled out in January, but we are a much smaller company. So how does that work with like our sales up, our sales down, how is the team performing, how what is going through your minds when this happened?

 

Ynzo

Right. Well, it’s had a huge impact overall. I got to tell you, and those people that have been stricken by much more than we have, so there’s no pity necessarily on our end at all.

 

Ynzo

I think if you look at sales, we do see a decline. There’s we don’t know yet because we’re in such early stages how long term that decline is, because what you see is that supermarkets are being replenished after they have been completely emptied in the last one and a half weeks by consumers. First being replenished with the most necessary goods.

 

Ynzo

So vegetables, toilet paper, cleaning material, etc.. We did see a complete sell-out on chocolate as well because I presume most people still will keep eating chocolate.

 

Lova

Yeah, I can imagine.

 

Ynzo

Perhaps even more …

 

Lova

I can imagine Tony’s would be sold out. So how are these sales declining?

 

Ynzo

We were sold out. If I look at supermarkets around where we saw us being completely sold out, but we don’t know whether that was because there were more sales or whether there was just no stocking from the back end. Right. There was no replenishment from the back end. So we don’t know that yet.

 

Ynzo

We, on the one hand, you could assume that there are more sales because people are more at home. So would eat more chocolate at home.

 

Ynzo

But we don’t know yet. For example, we have a big chunk in our business that has to do with travel and duty-free. There is zero there at the moment so that those sales have completely imploded. There are direct sales from our stores.

 

Ynzo

That is not existent at the moment because our stores have closed.

 

Ynzo

But the biggest sales that we have are supermarkets.

 

Ynzo

So we’re just looking at what’s happening over there. There is still the opportunity to buy online from our webshop, which is still going on.

 

Ynzo

So we think that overall it will not have a huge impact on sales in that part of the sales because the majority is done through supermarkets. But at the same time, we’re a business that is still very much in a growth base. So the new supermarkets coming on board are more hesitant. You don’t have a face to face talks with the new supermarkets. So that is on hold. So…

 

Lova

Why is it on hold? though wouldn’t you as a supermarket want more chocolate if it’s getting sold out?

 

Ynzo

No, but I mean, at new supermarkets, I’m talking about your discussions with new supermarkets now because they are focused on their logistical chain at the moment, I can imagine they have bigger things to focus on now than put in new materials on their shelves. So they are focusing on their logistics systems. They don’t know where this is leading to either. So everybody’s slightly hesitant at the moment and not knowing where this is leading.

 

Ynzo

So that normally means you’re kind of in lockdown and a standstill and we see that happening. We completely appreciate and understand why that is happening. And at the same time, though, if you look at us as a company, it’s 160 people that are all working from home.

 

Ynzo

So that does have an impact.

 

Lova

Every single one from home? nobody goes…

 

Ynzo

every single one.

 

Lova

And since when? since the announcement or before already…

 

Ynzo

Since, what are we Wednesday 25th for one and a half weeks since the Friday one and a half weeks ago, almost two weeks ago.

 

Lova

And was that like a shop or did your guys have systems in place already? Like how was the step towards that?

 

Ynzo

Well, normally nobody is prepared for a situation like this, let’s face it. But we do have a system where we all work through, for example, Microsoft Teams. So for us, the infrastructure was already there to be able to work from home. We all have laptops so we can all work from home anyhow.

 

Ynzo

But for me, in my job, for example, I tend to travel the world and be on stage at conferences and they are all canceled.

 

Ynzo

So I’m doing Tony’s talks online now in a live stream from my home, which is completely different than what I was used to. And this counts for many people. I mean, the people that are normally running our offices, the people running our stores, things are changing quickly.

 

Lova

And so …

 

Ynzo

So it has a huge impact there.

 

Ynzo

And then you don’t have face to face physical meetings and sit-downs. What we now have is in the morning we have our online meetings and Huddles to see how everybody is doing. We sent a current Tony’s survival package as a bit of Tony’s cheek last week to everybody within our team, tried to keep the spirits up. We did a pop quiz from home trying to keep the spirits up.

 

Ynzo

So it’s making sure that everybody is ok.

 

Lova

How are the Huddles calls? I’m assuming it’s not all hundred sixty people. It’s just teams. Right.

 

Ynzo

We have that.

 

Ynzo

We’ve had that twice now, a complete Tony’s Huddles. We do that once a week at least to make sure that we see the leadership team, see what the heads and chiefs are about, but also just make sure that everybody’s ok and get a rundown from everybody in the company. Every Monday morning, we always within the company have a Monday morning meeting anyhow, that is within the bigger team. So that is Holland. But we have the UK, the US calling in as well and we are.

 

Ynzo

And every morning we have it within the teams and also within the specific teams. So for example, in the marketing team, which is the overall marketing team at 9 a.m. we have an online huddle and then at 9.30, we also have a huddle in the specific team. So that’s design, that is movement, that is products, etc..

 

Lova

So how do you think it has affected productivity or did you introduce new technologies as well to maintain productivity?

 

Ynzo

Now when we have Microsoft Teams, which is the technology that we have anyhow, but for example, we quickly set up for me personally, we set up a live stream with OBS software that we sent through to our YouTube channel of Tony’s, where people can log in and see online Tony’s talks, for example. That was a new technology for us.

 

Ynzo

But having already we’re already working with Microsoft 360 and Microsoft Teams meant that we were already set up to work the way we work now.

 

Lova

So what is Tony’s talks then? Just you talking the whole day or different people talking?

 

Ynzo

[laughing] Well, my job in a sense, is yes. To present about where we come from as Tony’s, where we’re working towards, our mission, the way we work as a team, the way we do marketing, the way we do sales. So that is why I would tend to do on stage anyhow. And those talks, we have now turned on to online talks where I started first for well-graded school students because I wanted to help universities and high schools and grade schools. After all, they were switching to online and they were struggling with finding content for themselves in the beginning as well.

 

Ynzo

So I just offered them, you know, you need content, let me know and I’ll set up an online talk in Dutch, in English.

 

Ynzo

So that quickly became a huge success where yesterday we had an online talk with 250 people from several universities and universities of applied sciences logging in from Belgium and Holland. And I tried to answer all of the questions that they might have. And I’d also do conference calls.

 

Ynzo

I do a lot of these interviews and podcasts these days because of … things don’t standstill. But I think, first of all, let’s focus that we’re all ok and that the team is still healthy and ok everywhere to…

 

Lova

How did the company start treating, Yeah, the Coronavirus when it first happened? Is there a crisis team or whether significant changes in how employees were handled?

 

Ynzo

I don’t think I understand your question.

 

Lova

So a lot of companies from the Corona crisis had even before any measurements from the government started establishing crisis teams, taking specific…

 

Ynzo

Right. Well, we just decided slightly ahead of the curve to start working from home.

 

Ynzo

I don’t know when the first press conference was in Holland, but I think the day before we already decided to close our stores, for example, start working from home and …

 

Lova

How many stores you guys have in the Netherlands?

 

Ynzo

We have two stores.

 

Ynzo

We have one store in our office that the West Host area in Amsterdam, we have one store in the center of Amsterdam, the superstore in the Beurs van Berlage in Amsterdam. And so we closed those down to make sure that we weren’t part of the problem, but more part of the solution.

 

Ynzo

And then I started working for a home as just about everybody does. And we have our people and culture team is focused on how the team is doing. But we also have the IT support that’s constantly working with the Microsoft Teams, how we can work. But again, we have these systems in place. So that wasn’t so difficult for us. I mean, we all have laptops so we can work from home anyhow.

 

Lova

So and then if we would look at like the smaller companies, we have a ton of startups that apply to our events that are entering certain markets like vegan food and healthy food, gluten-free food, that type of thing. Also, startups that replace meat, obviously that’s popular nowadays. So you’re saying a lot of negotiations are stopping at supermarkets. A lot of things are closing. What would you advise those types of starting companies that need to kind of figure things out now?

 

Lova

Like a lot of people are saying, yeah, you have to innovate, innovate, but like, how would they be able to innovate?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, and I think that’s a struggle for everybody at the moment and starting startups and starting entrepreneurs, you know, on a bigger scheme of things, there’s a lot of hardship and obviously, a lot of people falling ill from Corona. At the same time, you need to have a positive view on this, too. I mean, what can we learn from this? How can we work together? I see a lot of people coming together. There’s a lot of social activities that you see happening, whether it’s online or in neighborhoods. There’re people delivering food to other people. I think this is also a moment that we can recalibrate the whole capitalist system that we’re in. And hopefully, the Post-Corona era will mean that we can use this to change for good and an entrepreneurial perspective.

 

Ynzo

And for these startups, I would say I’d rather have an optimistic view and see how businesses can adapt to this and see what they can learn from it and see what they can do to stay afloat. And I see loads of lovely entrepreneurial things going around where people that had no delivery are all of a sudden setting up delivery when it comes to food, people with food trucks that are getting in touch with people in neighborhoods where they could perhaps set up on a square in the neighborhood and deliver to the whole area, et cetera, et cetera.

 

Ynzo

So obviously, I don’t want to downplay the huge negative sides for many entrepreneurs, but there’s a lot of opportunities as well. And this is entrepreneurship and its core, I think.

 

Lova

What do you think the future like the future is going to look like after Corona? What do you think about the changes …

 

Ynzo

I wish I knew,

 

Lova

but from your experiences…

 

Ynzo

I can only hope. I mean, I think you know what there is I think 20th-century capitalism has evolved to a situation where a lot of entrepreneurs are slightly confused, I think, or get slightly confused about what their purpose in life and within society is. And this is not about creating as much wealth for themselves as they can get together.

 

Ynzo

I think within three, four, or five decades, we have gone the wrong way. I mean, it’s all been about growth, growth, growth. And I think hopefully 21st-century capitalism is much more about empathy and love and sympathy and true meaning and purpose and much more human to humankind of business.

 

Ynzo

And hopefully, this moment will open our eyes that indeed it’s not about B2B or B2C, but it’s H2H, human to human. I think what you now see is that, yes, you need a system, you need a social system. This disease is striking everybody as hard.

 

Ynzo

And there’s no discrimination within this disease. And hopefully, we can see that people get together much more.

 

Ynzo

And this hopefully means a new system that we can work in.

 

Lova

So then just out of interest from your experience, do you think the industry, was especially this industry, which is a little bit different than, let’s say, my industry of events or video or whatever, the supermarkets are being sold out, like every day things are empty? Do you think that things will change going forward for them or are they just going to be like, no, we made a lot of money so we don’t have to change anything? So being very traditional.

 

Ynzo

I know I don’t think it’s up to me to judge the supermarket at this moment in time, I think we should wait and give everybody the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know what we should judge at this moment, supermarkets profiting from them selling out. I mean, their role is to deliver food and goods to people that need it.

 

Ynzo

And they’re working very hard to replenish their shelves and their stocks to help people. And you see also supermarkets actively trying to avoid the huge hoarding that we’ve seen in the last two weeks in playful manners or restrictive manners. I mean, I love this sign by a Danish supermarket I think that said, the first product or the first two products have the regular price and the next product is a hundred and thirty-four euros.

 

Ynzo

More playfully, making sure that people don’t start hoarding and act more socially.

 

Ynzo

But even the hoarding part, you see this I think it’s only a small part of society. I think the bigger part of society is joining hands and helping each other. And that’s a more optimistic and positive view. I think

 

Ynzo

So let us not judge the supermarket at this point. Let’s wait till after the fact.

 

Ynzo

Because I think there’s a lot of them that are playing a social role in society.

 

Lova

Right. Yeah, I didn’t mean in the sense that they are profiting from it. They are working hard. What I meant with is a lot of technological innovations happen when this crisis has happened, but usually in industries that are suffering, and in this case, that industry is going to suffer that much for good reason, because obviously, we all need our groceries, and I hope they make a lot of money so that there could be even more groceries so that it doesn’t get sold out.

 

Lova

But at the same time, I’m thinking there could be so much innovation happening within those supermarkets.

 

Ynzo

yeah.

 

Lova

And somehow, like, for instance, the reason I say that is one of the things that is happening now in the Netherlands is every single supermarket cannot deliver because everything’s sold out, every single slot is sold out. So, I’m assuming the logistical value chain of getting food or groceries from a supermarket to somebody’s house can use quite a lot of innovation, just like Amazon is innovating their groceries or, you know logistical things.

 

Lova

But see right now, everybody’s super busy. So that’s not going to happen with those innovations, as you mentioned, because, well, they’re all busy. But I can imagine from the perspective of Tony’s then, you guys have a little bit more time on your hands because one of your stores, you closed it and, the negotiations are mellowing down. Are there specific innovations you’re looking at to become more of an Amazon for chocolates or something like that?

 

Ynzo

[Laughing] we don’t have the aspiration at all to become Amazon of chocolate honestly. I wish perhaps Amazon would become Tony’s of the online ordering platforms.

 

Ynzo

But I think we are at the moment, business as usual. In a sense, we are not looking at technological innovation as much as other companies tend to do. I think we are much more looking at social and societal innovation and how you can innovate in the field of making a physical impact in value chains. That is what we look at. So I would call that social innovation, which is the angle that we choose. What you do see, for example, now we call them Tony’s Unlimited, which is a machine that we have in one of our stores that produces your bar of Tony’s. So you can make more than twenty-two thousand different combinations of chocolate, but also of packaging and you can put your name on that. And for example, I think the team behind that is now working hard on how can we make sure that those home deliveries get brought to people.

 

Ynzo

But again, we are in such an early phase of this Corona crisis at the moment, we are more looking at how we can support local initiatives with our chocolate. How can we put a bit of a smile on the faces of people that are finding hardship at the moment? And then after this, let’s see how we need to have more business innovation.

 

Lova

Well, so quick question. Do you guys have a machine that can make any chocolates ever?

 

Ynzo

Yes.

 

Lova

 So, ok.

 

Ynzo

Ever we have three types of chocolate. So you have white chocolate, you have milk chocolate, you have dark chocolate. You can then choose… But have a look at it on the website as well. You can then choose what layer of chocolate you want beneath and how you can choose three ingredients and create your bar.

 

Lova

And so a consumer can just buy this machine or not

 

Ynzo

No, the machine is a big investment, you know, by the machine you buy the bar that the machine makes. So have a look at our website in the chocolate shop. You have designed it yourself and then you have the Tony’s Unlimited on the right side and the unlimited bars, you can design your own bar of chocolate, your own ingredients, your own wrapper, and then it’s sent to your home.

 

Lova

So why have you never thought about making it available, like making a consumer version of that? I can imagine that would create a new revenue …

 

Ynzo

Because I don’t think…

 

Ynzo

What do you mean with the consumer version? of the machine?

 

Lova

Yeah of the machine, something like for like 50 …

 

Ynzo

Because of where do you source your…  People at home can’t make their own chocolate, right. They can’t buy their cocoa beans and turn that into chocolate. It’s a process to make your own chocolate. We’d rather make the box for them because we’re sure we can make the best chocolate for them.

 

Lova

But don’t you have those? I know that in big warehouses, you can buy, like bags of chocolate and then you put them into a machine that melts it. And then you have like your…

 

Ynzo

But have a look. I don’t think you understand what I mean. Have a look at our Choco shop and how Tony’s unlimited works.

 

Lova

No worries. I’ll check it out.

 

Ynzo

This is not about just making a mold and putting your chocolate in there, making your own bar. It’s really what kind of ingredients you want in there. What kind of wrapper do you want around it, print your own wrapper, etc.?

 

Lova

Make sense. So I have two more questions that I wanted to ask now I did have you on the call. So, when you got into the company, I can imagine you either saw somebody who went to Ghana or went there yourself or something that made it all real for you? Do you have a story like this you can share?

 

Ynzo

I think this is also essential. I think once you’ve been there on the farms and spoken to the farmers that that grow the cocoa beans, that is life-changing, I think because that makes that relationship with those farmers so real. So I indeed, I was in Ivory Coast, I haven’t been to our corporations in Ghana yet, but I’ve been to cooperatives in Ivory Coast. And that is good to see what is happening on the ground.

 

Ynzo

And it’s also put things in perspective. And we have people on the ground there constantly. We have an impact team at Tony’s that is constantly in these building these relationships with these cooperatives. But many and I would say almost every Tony’s has always been to our cooperatives in Ghana and Ivory Coast.

 

Lova

Can you share a story that changed that for your immediate real?

 

Ynzo

Well, I was in Ivory Coast, it’s good to see even just the distances that you travel in a country like Ivory Coast, the condition of the roads you see, that it’s not as easy as things sound, just get cocoa beans from one place to the other. And then you see the cooperatives that you see the farms and you see the situation that these people live in.

 

Ynzo

And you should expect lovely white cottages with flowers around it from the farmers that we work with. It is a lengthy process to change that system and to make sure that the poverty diminishes for everybody over there. So it is a different level of poverty that you see there. And whatever I’ve seen in the rest of the world.

 

Lova

Can give an example? What did you see? And like…

 

Ynzo

Well, I mean, I think if you take what I had seen up till then in my life anywhere, whether it’s in Asia or South America, what I had seen, where I traveled, you always still have stores selling, for example, Oreos and Pringles chips. Right. And what you see in Ivory Coast, once you leave Abidjan, there are no brick and mortar buildings that you see anymore, almost. These are huts by the road, motorcycle repair stores, roads that are torn apart until the next election moment again, dirt roads that when it has rained, it takes you a full day to travel 50 kilometers.

 

Ynzo

And these are farmers that grow cocoa beans on tiny plots of land that have very little means for themselves.

 

Ynzo

So just increasing their revenue and helping them increase their own productivity is essential to get them to where we want them to get. It’s a different level of poverty that you see over there.

 

Lova

But so what? What does Tony’s do exactly? They just give them more money or do you build roads or do you go…

 

Ynzo

So we pay… the first and most important thing is to build this long term and direct relationship with these farmers. So we buy these cocoa beans from them where you pay a higher price for the cocoa beans. On top of the fair trade premium that I mean, all our beans are fair trade certified. So you pay about at the moment about a 20 percent fair trade premium to those farmers. But on top of that, we pay an additional Tony’s premium.

 

Ynzo

That is bridging the gap between the fair trade price and the market price and the living income reference price that we set up with the Fair Trade Organization that we think every chocolate producer should be paying. We pay on average, I would say about a 50 percent premium on top of that market price that the farmer would normally get.

 

Ynzo

We also help them increase their profit, their productivity by giving them schooling, education programs, awards for the best farmers to inspire them to increase their productivity, showing them different farming techniques that they could use, helping them use inputs for their farms. But also, for example, a bit of the premium goes to empowering the female farmers there and the wives of the male farmers to start up their businesses.

 

Ynzo

Part of it goes to improving their health insurance. How do you call that the health situation?

 

Ynzo

When we tell a farmer, listen, you need to send your kids to school and they tell us, you know, but the nearest school is 30 kilometers down the road. We help them build schools locally, we help them build canteens in their schools, et cetera, et cetera. But it’s up to the cooperatives and the farmers what to do with the premium that we pay to them. So they get to decide, I mean, this is an entrepreneurial relationship.

 

Ynzo

They can decide what they want to do with that money. Part goes to the farmer in cash, part goes to the farmer in goods.

 

Ynzo

So materials that they can work with, inputs, fertilizer, machetes, wellies, whatever they need.

 

Lova

And so what have you guys done so far then? Practical examples of how many schools have you built? and do you have those numbers?

 

Ynzo

Top of my head, I don’t know that. You need to look at our annual report that’s on our website. That states all of these things. What we do mostly, for example, is installing a system that we call our child labor monitoring and remediation system that is now all the cooperatives and all the farmers they work with have those systems in place where you can see whether you run into incidents.

 

Ynzo

There’s in our annual report, you can read exactly the amount of remediation that we’ve done up to also on our website by the way.

 

Lova

Yeah.

 

Ynzo

You can see what we’ve done very specifically on each on each situation that we run into. You can see exactly the amount of euros that we paid in premiums to our farmers at the beginning of the revelation. Let me see what I can have a quick look at what I would just recommend you read up on our website when you want to dive into these exact figures.

 

Lova

I have it in front of me right now.

 

Ynzo

Go for it.

 

Lova

It’s very nice. I see here, so Tony’s has 18.8 Percent achieved market share. And you bought fifteen hundred tons of cocoa. The one that interests me here.

 

Ynzo

No, we bought a lot more tons. We’ve bought fifteen hundred tons of open-chain cocoa. That’s the platform that we’ve launched with Albert Hejin, for example, and where we invite other companies to also join. I think last year we bought five and a half thousand metric tons of beans.

 

Ynzo

 I would just recommend reading up on our website.

 

Lova

Great. And then, small question, because we actually get a lot of these companies that… What do you think of companies that they start as a startup and they sell shoes or something? A lot of these shoe companies do that as well. And then what they do is they donate for every pair you buy, you get, you know, a pair get sent to Africa or something that.

 

Lova

What do you think of those companies? Or that business model specifically because a lot of startups are jumping on that wagon and I’m never sure if it’s good or bad.

 

Ynzo

Me neither, and I don’t think it’s up to me to have an opinion about this, I think you need to always see and keep reevaluating that business model specifically because indeed there are good sides and bad sides to that business model. I think you’re referring to a company that indeed donates a pair of shoes for every pair of shoes that’s sold in Western society.

 

Ynzo

You need to make sure that you don’t take away business locally from the person that would be making shoes there, for example. I think that is what you’re referring to. And I think you need to constantly …I don’t think it’s up to me to have an opinion whether that’s good or bad. I think every business needs to constantly recalibrate that business model and make sure they don’t have negative impacts there because we might judge this company.

 

Ynzo

But at the same time, there’s also a Dutch lottery that spreads bicycles to villages. And then that bicycle guy in that village doesn’t sell any bicycle for that year. So this is we shouldn’t judge these startups. I think we need to look at the positive impact that they’re making as well at the same time.

 

Ynzo

But let’s make sure that any business model needs to be constantly, I think, reevaluated, then it needs to be able to have the guts to pivot when they realize that there’s a negative impact or undo the negative impact.

 

Lova

So you suggest that if that business model is in place, that they need to look at the metrics of everything that is happening on the ground and whether it’s good or bad and then…

 

Ynzo

Exactly. And then be able to pivot. I mean, let’s face it, 10 years ago, we thought biofuels were the solution to fossil fuels. And what you saw happening is that the first generation biofuels were made from corn and that directly beat into the food chain in South America, for example. And then you need to recalibrate and see what is the best solution. And for example, we can now make biofuels out of algae. We can make biofuels out of the grass.

 

Ynzo

So it also leads to innovations. And we should embrace those innovations, but realize that we need to and we can only embrace those innovations if we start realizing and are open that we need to be able to pivot and steer and change our business models.

 

Lova

Yeah, I agree. So again, almost five questions. So what interests me a lot is which you mentioned in the earlier conversation about serious friends. Now we have also something called ambassadors. These are the people that without them we wouldn’t have grown that much. But how do you get those ambassadors, serious friends? How do you keep them engaged and how do you make sure that they are as effective as possible towards your goals?

 

Ynzo

Well, first and foremost, this is still a work in progress for us, what we saw is that we want to …

 

Lova

 I thought you have fifty-five thousand serious friends in your mission report?

 

Ynzo

No, I think we’re at 35000 at the moment, and I think we’re at 35000 at the top of my head.

 

Lova

It says here, fifty-five thousand serious friends, that’s thirty-five thousand more than we currently have. Oh, that’s our goal.

 

Ynzo

So you’re looking at other goals for this year?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, exactly. And I think we started with 15000 this year or something or 20, and we are now at thirty-five thousand. Anyway, long story short, we’re still really working on what works best. What works best for them, what works best for us. But for example, two years ago we launched a petition in the Netherlands and called “wet Zorgplicht Kinderarbeid”.

 

Ynzo

So this has to do with due diligence within your company to make sure that there’s no child labor in your area of the value chain. And this was a law that was passed in Holland. And we needed our serious friends to sign a petition to up the pressure on the government to make sure that they realize that there are consumers that want this.

 

Ynzo

So that was what we did two years ago that inspired us to set up this serious friend program. And what we do, for example, you have this login that you have, you can then join up, but we’re still seeing what works best for them.

 

Ynzo

Now, for example, we launched a petition at Tonyschocolonely.com/petition where we want to get a million signatures in total to really up the pressure on governments of the U.S. and also the European Union states to make sure that there are laws in place all around the world.

 

Ynzo

Right, where we make sure that there’s enough pressure on organizations all around the world to make sure there’s no human rights violation in their value chain. But it’s still a work in progress. How we’re actually doing this, these serious friends of what we can give back to them. Up to now, what we do is we keep them informed on these things that we’re doing, but we also inform them on the fun stuff.

 

Ynzo

So there’s a bit of a new newsletter involved. There’s also allowing them to come to our annual party before other people, et cetera, et cetera. But it’s a constant and dynamic playing field.

 

Lova

And how do you …

 

Ynzo

First and foremost, it’s people signing up.

 

Lova

So, Yeah. How do you get them to sign up? Because there’s a lot of donations out there.

 

Ynzo

Yeah. So it’s we speak about this on our wrappers. I have a QR code in my presentation where people sign up.

 

Ynzo

It’s when we do talk all around the world where we ask people to sign up.

 

Ynzo

It’s we have a truck gone around through the U.S. where people can sign up.

 

Ynzo

If we have any events, we ask people to sign up. It’s any trade shows that we are, we ask people to sign up. So it’s everywhere we have… in our stores, both our stores, we have this wall for serious friends where they can sign up as a serious friend, etc..

 

Lova

Ok, so pretty much wherever possible QR codes and ask people?

 

Ynzo

Yeah, and I used to be adamantly against QR codes a couple of years ago. I thought they were outdated and now I think they were useful again for this forum, for this part…

 

Lova

Why did you change your mind?

 

Ynzo

I thought QR codes at a certain point were everywhere useless, and now I can put them in a presentation and because smartphones now don’t need an app anymore to directly from the QR code get to where you want them to, that you can just point your camera and you have a direct link to the QR code that helps.

 

Lova

So you pretty much have thirty-five thousand serious friends just from word of mouth technically from speeches and a wrapper?

 

Ynzo

We have 70 million euros in sales just from word of mouth.

 

Lova

So what would you recommend? Like a business that wants to grow and use word of mouth? Would you say do more speeches, apply for more awards?

 

Ynzo

I would say. I would, first of all, have a story that’s authentic and real. So it’s not about just telling the story. I mean, obviously, for us, telling the story is essential and we hope to do it nicely. But if your story isn’t right, then it’s useless to tell that story anyhow.

 

Lova

How do you know the story is right?

 

Ynzo

So if… Well, we have to go back to the very first moment we started speaking, I mean, we’re a business that’s there to change things in the world, right? So if you have a very clear purpose and you have a very authentic purpose, that means something for the society and a planet around you. I think that is the story that’s great to spread. Right. If you’re just making hand grenades and cluster bombs, I don’t think your story is very fitting in society.

 

Lova

Yeah. Get that. So pretty much something that contributes to the world that we can all agree on that is beneficial to the world.

 

Ynzo

 And I think as an entrepreneurial activist, I would say any business from now on or maybe already and definitely in the future needs to have a purpose that has to do with creating a better world.

 

Lova

Yeah, ok, so then you have your story. What do you think would be the next steps that you would recommend?

 

Ynzo

 Tell it …

 

Lova

So speeches at conferences or …

 

Ynzo

anywhere, tell it.

 

Ynzo

I mean, we started on any stage. People would give us we would tell our story and anybody would tell our story, everybody in Tony’s and I would say never in a company that wants to tell a story needs to be able to tell that story. And that is by being fully transparent, by having a story that has no hidden features behind it.

 

Ynzo

And then perhaps at a certain point, you could decide to have a guy like me, an evangelist, running around the world telling that story as a full-time job to be able to spread those values. But I would say grab any opportunity you have, whether it’s business or private, to tell that story. I think some Tony’s might not be as fun to stand by at the bar because they would just constantly tell you about how the world of chocolate looks like.

 

Lova

And, ok, what would you say about in the early stages, do you think especially young CEOs are just starting, is it worth it to tell the story at the beginning or should they focus on actually building the business? Or how do you have the balance? because I can imagine …

 

Ynzo

I would focus on building a business that has a benefit to the society around them. That would be my focus. Once you have that business that adds something to the world and society around them, telling that story will become an automatic part of your being. And whether that’s through paid media. Right. I mean, we do it without paid media, but you could still put in ads for the good of the world, right?

 

Ynzo

I mean, there’s no shame in using ads. We don’t do it because we think our story needs a longer time frame because we have a very complex story. But if you have a very simple story that adds anything to the world, feel free to use a paid media if that’s your way. For us, it’s telling the story and as an independent adviser, ages ago when I was an independent entrepreneur, I would also and afterward as a professor to students of new companies and of entrepreneurship, I always tell them, go to any Chamber of Commerce meeting, go to any entrepreneurial platform, go to any conferences or whatever you can find.

 

Ynzo

Just go there and soak up information but also spread your story to the people around you. If you have the time, go to anyone you can walk up to.

 

Lova

 Ok. And then maybe a tip that you have, especially from your position, get to speak a lot at conferences. How do these young entrepreneurs then get all these opportunities?

 

Lova

Do you just email …

 

Ynzo

No, by going everywhere and starting to tell your story to two persons, then you get an audience of five, then you get a living room audience of ten, then you get a classroom of twenty. And in the end, perhaps you might be on stage with a thousand people around you. It’s something you build up gradually. People need to see you and people need to run into you. People need to be inspired by your story.

 

Ynzo

And when your story is inspirational, people will be inspired. They will ask you to tell that story at the next stage and the next stage.

 

Lova

So how long in years did it take you to go from two people to like a lot of people?

 

Ynzo

We went from two people to 160 people now in 15…

 

Lova

 No, I mean, in stages as in you started.

 

Ynzo

Uh… Stages, that differs.

 

Ynzo

It’s not about just the amount of people that are in your audience. Right. I mean, it’s also talking to the right people in an audience and that’s something you gradually build up. And some big stages come by on day one and some take ages. But you can’t put a very specific timeline on.

 

Lova

So, your advice is not …

 

Ynzo

grabbing every opportunity you have.

 

Lova

Your advice is then not to focus specifically on big stages but on industry-specific stages.

 

Ynzo

Look at quantity and quality at the same time.

 

Ynzo

I mean, you need to it’s no use talking to a thousand people that that have no that don’t care and that you are not interested in and they are not interested in you. At the same time, you could find 10 people that might become your biggest brand ambassadors and that might be the best audience you will have in your lifetime.

 

Lova

Ok, so yeah. So pretty much quality and quantity need to be balanced and then tell you to make sure that your story actually helps people and then you tell your story everywhere. And in the meantime, just make sure that the foundation of your business is actually running and showing examples of that story.

 

Ynzo

Exactly.

 

Lova

Cool, now, I think that is actually really interesting, Do you have anything that you would like to add specifically for social entrepreneurs or activist entrepreneurs like you called them?

 

Ynzo

 With the danger that I might open up a new one hour of conversation, I honestly in the last couple well, last year or two years have started to steer away from being called or at least calling myself and also being called a social entrepreneur, because that has the risk of ending up in or being seen as part of a niche.

 

Ynzo

And I honestly think that entrepreneurship as a whole needs to be recalibrated and is or will be social in its core anyhow. So this is what I mean with new 21st-century capitalism, where entrepreneurship will be or already is much more social in its core. And it’s not something you add on to entrepreneurship.

 

Ynzo

So by realizing that, then that puts you out of that thing that we talk about earlier in this podcast was where entrepreneurship and doing good for the world would be two extremes of one spectrum. Right. People often ask how can you combine being sustainable with making money? I think the moment you let go of that being a paradox, then you realize it can be one and the same thing, we’re the living example that it can be. Right, being financially successful.

 

Ynzo

So doing good financially can go hand in hand completely with doing good for the society around you. And once you start realizing that, I think I think it’s good to let go of the division between entrepreneurship and social entrepreneurship, but realizing that entrepreneurship is or will be social in its core. And then I think that is the entrepreneurs of the future that will be successful. And you can see it around you with companies like Patagonia, Tony’s Chocolonely, Saiper, Dopra, et cetera, et cetera.

 

Lova

But don’t you think …

 

Ynzo

So, my tip would be to let go out of that paradox. And my second tip to starting entrepreneurs in your case would be to never think you’re too small to make a difference.

 

Lova

What do you mean with that?

 

Ynzo

Well, I think anybody can make a difference, whether it’s consumer-level or it’s an entrepreneur, if you think that you’re never big enough … in my slides, I use one slide, one saying by Anita Roddick, the founder of the Body Shop, the lady who died very too young, unfortunately.

 

Ynzo

She once said, if you think something small can make a difference, try sharing your room with a mosquito. Right. And that shows how a very small thing can make a very big difference. And I think anybody, whether it’s a consumer or an entrepreneur, can make a difference on any level, any decision you stand in front of. You can always decide will I make a more sustainable and more social decision or will I have a different driver behind it than being social and sustainable.

 

Lova

And why do you think, um, the shift is happening towards more social? Um…

 

Ynzo

Because we landed in a complete overshoot of capitalism.

 

Lova

What do you mean?

 

Ynzo

Because I think 21st.

 

Ynzo

Because I think there’s more wealth in the world, but it’s not distributed as socially as it can be. And I’m not I am not a social I’m an entrepreneur in heart and soul.

 

Ynzo

And I think anybody deserves the opportunity of thriving as an entrepreneur. But if you look at the division of wealth in the world, sometimes it makes me nauseous and very sad. Right. If you look at the wealth in certain parts of the world and the other poverty of other sides of the world where people don’t have clean drinking water, don’t have normal toilet facilities, can’t go to school. And at the same time, there are people living in ridiculous wealth.

 

Ynzo

I think that is just the wrong signal. I think people are starting to appreciate that. I think the human side of the economy has reached an overshoot in a couple of generations that we’re now seeing an underflow of new true leadership that has to do with empathy, sympathy, and hopefully, I would consider working it much more, working towards a love economy where much more have a human side to it.

 

Lova

Do you think it’s also regional specific? Because I luckily have been seeing the same thing, that it’s going more towards an economy and capitalism where you really help each other, which now the Coronavirus and everything is really starting to show. But do you think that some parts in the world just don’t like they pretend to care but don’t care or the circumstances don’t allow them to care? And so they just accumulate wealth without thinking.

 

Ynzo

Uh, yes and no, I think yes, I mean, if you really zoom out and look at the planet, you obviously see a higher level of wealth in Western Europe and North America and certain parts of Asia and a lesser amount of wealth in Africa, Asia or South America.

 

Ynzo

But at the same time, you also see the same kind of divisions if you zoom in again. Right. You also see that in levels in Brazil or in Africa or in Western Europe, there’s also poverty in Western Europe, which is unacceptable. I mean, just kids going to school in the U.K. without breakfast. The only hot meal they have once a day is in school. I think that’s ridiculous as well. So there’s a lot of stuff to fix it.

 

Ynzo

I don’t think you could really mark it down on certain regions that easily.

 

Lova

That actually brings me to a really interesting question that I always have when I’m dealing with especially. So when we started, there wasn’t a lot of social impact and entrepreneurship. So we decided to create this event where we would allow especially if an entrepreneur had an impact, a positive impact on someone, we would stimulate them and we’d give them pretty much everything they needed to become viable.

 

Lova

But what I also had I had weird conversations with people who said why do you focus on helping specific startups who don’t help, you know, here locally, but they help like people in Africa or Asia or Latin America? And my answer was always, well, the whole mission for us was so that we can facilitate and help somebody who can at least help one human life. But you have these diverse reactions.

 

Lova

Obviously we help startups that help locally, but also we want to help startups that, you know, are international or in Africa or in Latin America. So how do you answer people when you’re in that discussion, how do you answer people that say, oh, no, we have enough problems here? I guess the discussions everywhere. For instance, Elon Musk, who’s doing with SpaceX going to Mars and then everybody answering, we have enough problems here on Earth.

 

Lova

Why are we going to Mars? how…

 

Ynzo

Yeah, but at the same time, you know, we can always criticize everybody down to the ground. But I much more take a positive view there. Yes. You could criticize Elon Musk for wanted to go to Mars. At the same time, this guy is putting his balls on the block constantly as an entrepreneur to make sure that within five years time we started driving electric cars that were comfortable and had a long-range, et cetera, et cetera.

 

Ynzo

Right. So, yes, you could criticize social entrepreneurs that are doing something for people on the other side of the world.

 

Ynzo

At the same time, they are doing something for people, period. And yes, we need people to do more for people locally as well. But we need both. We shouldn’t be criticizing everybody constantly that they’re not doing what you want them to do if they are doing something right for the world as a whole. I mean, we need to take a bigger perspective. We are no longer, I mean, we are no longer separate ships on the ocean.

 

Ynzo

I mean, this whole world is intertwined and interconnected. Right. And you see that with the sustainability discussion. Uh, CO2 emissions don’t stick to your country. I mean, they go all over the world. And this is a global issue we need to face. And that has the same thing with global poverty. It’s a global issue. We need to fix, a yes at the local level as well.

 

Lova

So what have you been in those discussions, what do you tell people, do you just say we’re all interconnected?

 

Ynzo

Yes, that’s what I told you. I tell those people as well and I salute these initiatives. And, yes, we need to do it locally and we need to do it globally at the same time. It’s all intertwined.

 

Ynzo

It’s all one big system.

 

Lova

 Sure, now, I like that. I think that’s actually a really good closing. A very positive note as well on making sure, especially during this crisis, to understand that things are local but also international. And we wherever needed, need to help people. I’m extremely excited that you guys are offering your chocolates also online. You’re not promoting or anything, but I love your chocolates, obviously.

 

Lova

So I’ll be ordering some stuff online because everything’s sold out to … [Laughing]

 

Ynzo

[Laughing] Cool, go for it.

 

Lova

Cool,  anything else you have to add? If not, then we’re going to close here.

 

Ynzo

 Let’s close off, I think we covered everything this long…

 

Lova

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming by. If anybody’s interested in becoming a serious friend of Tony’s, I’ll make sure that the links are below. 

 

Ynzo

Perfect

 

Lova

and, yeah, I’m going to sign up as a serious friend for sure. And I’m super excited …

 

Ynzo

sign up petition becomes a serious friend

 

Lova

 I will, I’m super excited that you are here with us. Yeah. Thank you so much.

 

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Transcript:

OK. Welcome to the new podcast. Today, we have Emilio with us, who is heading Asics V.P. Innovation. If I understand correctly, for Europe, Central Africa, Africa and Central… What was it…

 

Europe, Middle East and Africa.

 

I’ve seen that you were responsible for getting Asics  to 18 from 18 place to third place in Spain. A lot of background, a lot of experience and Asics  as well as innovation articles that I’ve read.

 

I don’t want to go too deep into it because I want to hear your story, of course. And I would like to start this way with asking what I always ask, which is how is your childhood like? Where did you start? How what led to the mindsets that you have today?

 

I think all in life will have a lot of things that bring you to that place. I think. Long time ago with my family, I was travelling abroad and that opened my mind.

 

But maybe one of the things studying journey or studying and based things can open your mind. But they think what really bring me to this is being in position, that let me be a startup inside the corporation sometimes.

 

What do you mean?

 

I’ve been in when I was joining Asics , it was the they hired me to take this distributor business that moves to the multinational means they buy the rights to the distributor and they went to Convertino Multinational and the company before I was doing the same.

 

Then in fact, this kind of position is you have to be startup inside the corporation. You have to follow the rules of the corporation. You have the guidelines. But you have to move like in a startup.

 

So you… What was a company before Asics. What did you work on.

 

Before Asics I was working life fitness. It’s a fitness of women, uh, company.

 

It was an American brand.

 

Yes. And before that, I was with my family creating our own business also.

 

You were in the family business?

 

Before that? Yes. I’ve been in all spectrum of ranges and sizes.

 

I would like to actually go deeper into the family business so… Can you maybe shape a little bit of the story of how you first entered it and then maybe the history of the family business.

 

I think long term of all, we it’s it’s the time that the steel was not a startup because the startup name is very thing. And we we create a company for recycling bottles of water. And from that, it came a second company that trades with a product of the recycling flooring systems. And we create flooring that we sell created with recycled material.

 

So you were sellingthe bottles and the flooring?

 

Was with bottles and with the covering of the cables then were several seconds with with these recycled materials we were producing.

 

And who came up with it?

 

I was a idea of my father then it was, uh, the guy on the back selling and doing the marketing.

 

So you joined at 18 years old or how did it go?

 

No, before I work in another, uh, corporation, but I was, uh, run twenty six or twenty five.

 

So to give context for the listener. So what year was this all happening.

 

Long time ago, let’s say. A long time. But I don’t remember. I think I saw the 90s

 

Could be or something like that. Yes.

 

So you’re working you because I think at that point you just graduated and then you worked at this corporation and then your dad just comes to you and says, hey, I need your help for what happened. Yeah.

 

He was creating that company. You help. And it was opportunity.

 

So usually my experiences with family business is again, that’s me. I spend three days and then I need a break. So what is your perception like?

 

I think that’s real. It’s I think it’s it’s nice to work with family. Sometimes it’s good to work with the family and you need to demonstrate yourself. One of the reasons that I was out is that because I need to think for myself that they can do things outside. But but it’s also important. And I think I could be more used there because we create two companies Each one was in one company and then let the space.

 

And how did the growth go once you joined? And

 

The growth was really good. I think the challenges you have when you create a company, it’s always the same. You have to have a good quality. You have to have a good finance. And this kind of things is what is tough when you create the company.

 

So let’s hdive a little bit deeper into that, because to me, that’s very broad. Yes, good finance has good quality. How did you know the quality was good? How did you make sure the finances were good?

 

I think the first thing you have to thing is that the years that we’re speaking doesn’t exist. That we seize on this kind of things is something that came much later. And I mean, finance wise, what you need is all business that you create almost. I cannot tell all but mean of the business that there’s a creation.They have some years that they need a cash flow negative to create the business. Then you have to cover that. And on the other side, quality wise is a thing. We all know what is an MBP, we all know what. But sometimes there’s a minimum that you need to be able to launch things properly. So sometimes you make mistakes.

 

Can you give an example?

 

For example, in in in the company will make some mistakes on the quality was a good product, but sometimes was not giving the right standards.And these make you learn.

 

How did you know?

 

When our customers are not happy? That’s the main indicator of any business, I think.

 

So how did you track that? Customers were not happy because nowadays there are reviews online. But back then, there were no reviews.

 

I think in marketing, in sales, nothing is invented. Always the same. If you go much two years before I was born, it was the shop in the small village. And that they know everybody knows everybody was happy or not knows all the gossips, knows everything. Then things that has changed with the time is the way and the and the rich. Nowadays anything is in a second. There is a review, but a long time ago also was the option to listen customers to speak with customers. There was much more complicated.

 

So you would call them up or you call them up. You follow up. If you really focus on customers. You do it. That’s in the Internet era or the before Internet era.

 

So. So let’s say now you look back at what you did back then to now. Do you still use some of the older methods?

 

I think their let’s say their bases, their bases are the same. The methods are different.

 

So did you?

 

I give you an example. In that time, instead of email newsletter, you you make Brinn newsletter. Instead of customize, you make blocks of customization that you bring different things. Then the things are the same. The way that you do it are much better, faster, whatever. I give you an example of one thing that you will see is the glasses were invented before Gutenberg in Venice. And the market was only the monks that they used in the market was not there. And suddenly it came to Gutenberg 200 years later. And then suddenly it was a big market of glasses. What I’m telling you is glasses were invented 200 years before, but there was no market then. Lot of ideas. All of the ideas are already invented. Is the way that the educated, the way that you do it, how it’s how it’s done.

 

I mean, that’s partially what the job is of innovation, you know, to make sure that you innovate in a way, but also communicated to the masses somehow because he said the glasses weren’t there, but they weren’t really suited for the market. Some type of innovation must have happened also in the mindsets of people to eventually want glasses right? and the example that comes up to me nowadays is Tazewell, like electric vehicles are really old. But then now it’s cool to have, like, electric vehicle. So using the example glasses, which, you know, we can eventually look into like mature business did, but. Considering your position innovation, how do you feel you do innovation, then that really creates products for fitting markets?

 

I think the first thing is you don’t know have to assume and assume, I think is the biggest problem of all companies. First thing is you are speaking about electric cars, electric cars. The biggest limitations before was the batteries. Still, there are the Chargers because the motor is older than the gasoline. But but things are changing. And I think one of the things that we have to have an innovation is do not assume because one thing that did not work two years ago today is the same thing. Every day is changing things. Technology is changing and things are different. For example, with the 5G model, things will completely change. The assumption is that we are doing and and these kind of things, I think is one of the roles of innovation is will have to match two things. One thing is, if customers are willing to buy it, the most important thing is the one that pay us. And second thing is technology is ready for that. And then you have to adapt both things.

 

I want to still keep for a second with the family business because to me, it always is intriguing, the family business. How… How long did you stay there?

 

If I’m not wrong, in two periods, it was two periods of three years, around five or six years.

 

How has the relationship with your dad evolved? Has it become better because of it or worse?

 

It has been always good. The key thing on this kind of thing is you have to be very clear. What is the barriers? The limits? Where you being work at home or not at home? This kind of things. But this is the same with a lot of the stuff that nowadays, some of the founders, they lived together because they are doing the business and they have to know the barriers. And if it’s not a barrier, it’s when people get burned out, when people has illness and a lot of things, then that’s the same thing.

 

So how did you do that with your dad? Was it your dad who decide these are the limitations?

 

i think it’s a mix of both. And I think that’s that’s, uh, depends on the personality of the people. If you know how to express yourself. And you know how to tell what is good or bad. Then you have an advantage.

 

So can you give an example of one barrier that you implemented that worked really well?

 

I think at the end, you have to think that, uh, in job, it’s really important that you feel that you can do your things, meet, and nobody likes to feel that they are obliged to do something or whatever. And sometimes when you have trust with the other, you forced to do something. But this is a place for multinationals, for starters, for everybody.

 

Then I think it’s good to understand the motivations of the others and to put barriers where the limits of what they say to what.

 

Uh, so you can give an example of what you did

 

I give an example. If I was in charge of sales and marketing and he was in charge of production and finance, it was good to share, was not good to blame, was good to decide what it is good to understand, what is the role of each one. And the same applies for any startup nowadays. You have a CEO, you have a CTO, you have. And sometimes the definitions are so tight that could be fights because it’s good to share, is good to make a joint position. But then somebody is taking the lead and is not good to have somebody in your neck that you’re doing a good job.

 

So clear role.

 

Yes.

 

So OK then from my perspective, a little bit the question, what if you’re the CEO and let’s say I mean, I see quite a lot of space to our program. So you’re the CEO and you have a career CTO completely in charge of the app or platform, but you still seem like you want, you know, something different implemented than you want and you want  that and you want discussions around these things based based on what you just said, role allocation. The CTO would say to the CEO know, like that said,

 

I’m not telling exactly that. What I’m telling is there is a time to challenge, a time to agree and a time to execute. What is not good is that you see something as a team. You agree this is the direction and and then you challenge that position. Then always good to challenge. And I give an example when you create teams is people that like to surround it of people exactly the same that the same person. That’s very convenient in the way that nobody challenge you. It’s scum, whatever. But that’s not advanced anything. When you are around with teams that challenge you, that’s much more uncomfortable for you. But to make you evolve. But to control, this has to be an agreement, a moment to discuss, a moment to everybody, put their opinion and then as a team agree what is good for the company. Once you agree that and it is not another change that makes something that change on that position. You can not tell I was standing. I was telling. I was telling. No, we agree this we know this is what we agree. It’s any change. Let’s see. Discuss. We change this. But this was the agreement. What you can not do is try to win always in your opinion.

 

Yeah I agree with that. So then we move on from the family business. So what did you do after?

 

After that , I joined Life Fitness.  Life Fitness was like with Asics. They just bought the rights. They used to have a distributor in Spain in bought oil and they bought the rights of this to do to get back to the multinational.

 

What does that mean by the rights of the distributor?

 

When you are a distributor you have the right to sell the product in the country. Sometimes the headquarters want to keep control of that. Then they buy the company and tell me you are not anymore distributor. Now, as a multinational, you go.

 

Why would they give the rights in the first place if eventually they will buy them?

 

Because normally in the stage of a startup or a state of a corporation is that of any company, there are moments that it’s needed to have headquarter or subsidiary or in a country, and there are moments that is easy to have a distributor or an Asian or whatever. Then you make a contract. That contract last five years, six years, two years. If you want to finish it before that has a cost. But that’s any startup in the world has that challenge. They do not have money to put offices all around the world, but they want to be all around the world. And sometimes our business that with Internet is not enough and you need physical locations. And that’s one of the choices.

 

So… So pretty much if you’re scaling, you don’t have to have offices everywhere. You just make a contract with the distributor and then it looks as if you’re everywhere.

 

And they sell for you and they get one percentage of that.

 

Really?

 

That’s like an Asian if you go to US. In Europe. You decide a lot of times to have people employee as a salesperson. In US you have Asians and an Asian is somebody that you do not pay. You pay a percentage of the sales. But that percentage of a sale, they are protected with a contract. You cannot cancel that contract. If you can’t say you have to pay. This is the same when you go to countries, whatever. It’s impossible for startup nowadays to go to all the countries in the world. But could have sent in some countries that are a priority to have presence and growth.

 

So I have an idea how to hire agents and teams abroad. You can most certainly use recruiters like multinational recruiters to do that. How would you for physical products like assure something? How would you get a distributor? Because I’m assuming you don’t just go on like a recruiter website and just type I want a distributor. So how?

 

this is that much depending on the industry and the business that you are. I mean, each industry, they have their companies that they are selling and they are really good on that. Then that’s if you’re on the industries that so complicated to find it. And then research, which are the good ones. But there are easier ways to do this. What is true that these kind of decisions can not be done. This is like a marriage. Because they they they are the reputation of your brand.

 

So it’s pretty much you go to trade shows and/or Google and you search the leading distribution agencies in the country and then you talk with them and then you have to treat it almost like an investor relationship where you really

 

Something like that. And you have to think that there are two kind of business, the business that can be scale up a hundred percent online and that zero of these kind of things. And the business that there’s really still need the the hard base to be really close to the consumer. This kind of business always will need to have offices or to have somebody or persons. And then you you have to have this like imagine hiring a CEO in a country is the same importance because they can affect your image or they can or they can make you earn money with good image.

 

So you said something really interesting, said there’s two types of business that goes online and then the one that needs to be closer to the consumer. So why and that is maybe you’re skipping a little bit. But let’s go now to Asics. Why… I feel like that could be a business that is fully online. Why take the choice to create stores and closer to consumer? Why not maybe create like a hype online or something or get influencers?

 

You have to. Once again, you have to differentiate two things. Hundred percent digital means the day that we can bring in a 3-D printer issue in your home. What you’re telling us is going to be a hundred percent real. You will need no shops. But that’s very far away. But any business that you need, physical products, even Amazon now is putting some physical shops.

 

Really?

 

Amazon has opened some supermarkets, some political shop. They need showrooming because still people need to have an experience and touch and they give an example. If you are a runner, which is the right shoe that you like and you can be recommended. But at the end, it’s a it’s a feeling that you need to feel and know and and you have to test the product. Then you have to receive the product. You have to test it. You have to validate it. And you can do it. Shipping product up and down. Or you can go to shop tested and knowing which is the right one for

 

What is. I feel like Zalando really like figured that part out, which is the shipping part.

 

With a huge cost for them.

 

Is that actually the interesting question for me. Is that cheaper or more expensive than having a shop like Asics has?

 

Depends the business. They’ve been where you have the shop. Depend the product. If the product is very heavy or very volume, the transport is higher, then bleeds are higher. I think it’s can not be relying on everything. I think it’s very, very the good thing is I remember one Internet game they told Divvies when these appeared teams are still there on is moving to Internet. More radios are still there. It’s moving. What I’m telling is e-commerce is here forever, is not going to change. Everyday Is going to be more. But people still need experiences. People still need some touch some feel. Whatever. We’re persons and the mix of both things is we have to find where it is. It is not black and white TV. It is not the only under man. It’s a mix of things there. When you see a football game, it doesn’t matter if it’s on TV or online is the same. You see it at that moment, not when you want them. There are things that are going to happen in one place, the other. Then I think that we’ll have to put in context. I think in in this time, we feel it’s only one way. There are a lot of ways anybody can do everything. It’s how you do it in the… You do it. The result that you have. Yeah, I agree.

 

So, okay, back to Life Fitness. So you went from family business there. So tell what will happen.

 

It’s a completely different business. It’s a multinational American with a roof like  that was SOX. Sarbanes Oxley. That means that you have a stock exchange company. You have to control a lot of things, rules, procedures, whatever. But at the same time, you have a really small company because sales are really small because you just bought it and you have to grow it. And it’s interesting because you have the two sides. You have, let’s say, the knowledge of the big corporations, that they’re really good on procedurea maintaining resources, knowledge and on the side, they are managing a really small company…

 

That have to roll as well as a team.

 

We create the team from zero because we start from zero. We have two West two three persons. That was from the previous one. We have created from zero, then created from zero to make it the reasonable business.

 

So again, how long did it take you?

 

I was, uh, three years on something until I moved to Asics.

 

And what happened in those three years?

 

Growing in double digits every year, increasing on people on sales and profit and learning a lot.

 

So by the time you left, how big was it?

 

There amounts that, uh, you cannot tell because, you know, in this you have confidentiality agreements, but less so millions

 

No no no not the revenue I meant. The people

 

and people side, I think we finish with 20 something person.

 

So you built everything from zero in three years. And then. So what were the biggest learning lessons?

 

I think the biggest learning is first thing is first, it’s not the good or bad, the strategies, the strategies that you can apply play. Because what I mean is when you think big company, you are going to do things. But the reality is you’re a small company in a big company, then you have to adjust your strategy. Second thing is the importance of people. I mean, when I speak, suppose later, but when I see now a lot of startups, I think they feel for the people side and not because they are bad, but because they do not taking account two criteria that they put them. First thing is the role of the founder in each phase of the startup is complete, different, and sometimes they do not realize. Initially they really broke focus raising money in the second phase they agreed to create that team. They have some traction. And another phase they have to be leaders. And it’s completely different from  make a product, raise money but be a leader. Some of the stuff that’s fails for that because the founder is not evolving. And second, big failure on the people side in a startup is because they do not realize the importance of the people. They just receive the money and they start hiring. But people change the culture. If you don’t hire. Correct, change culture.

 

Change ways. Change the company.

 

So how do you how do you hire?

 

I think the first thing is you have to know very well. And we for example, in Asics, we hire  basing basing three criteria. The first criteria is does it mmatch with the culture of the company. And this is important. If you’re CV, your experience is really good.

 

But how do you know what the culture of the company is?

 

And can we use psychology for that? We use our long time interest. But the first thing you have to have very clear, what is your culture? If you do not know it, very clear, proven what it is you can not find or not.

 

And so how do you what are some basic steps? Some of our listeners,

 

I think the first thing is what do you want to be as a company? I give an example. Asics means Anima Sana In Corpore Sano. We are not about winning. We are not about… We want to make better people then in our culture we want to grow. Yes. Want to. Yes. But with rules, we in our corporate culture, following the rules, being good with your colleagues, learn from Ferrugia improve. It’s very important in other cultures. It’s only important to be the first to win whatever.

 

If you kill the others, you don’t mind is good or bad. Is your company culture. Each one will be… Will feel that their culture is better then the first thing is you have to define very well. What is your company culture, what do you want to be. You want to be a charity or do you want to be a company? If you’re a company, what is your aim? What is you propose? What? And with this, you have to hire people that met these values. I give you an example personally. If I change of Asics , I will not be able to go to the tobacco company. I was at the at the smoking at the tobacco

 

tobacco company.

 

Why? Because I don’t believe on unhealthy life. Then if they want to hire me, it will be not a matching culture. In others I will be hundred percent open. But this is an example. Then culture is the first thing. Second thing is how we’d match with a team. There is people that could match with the culture, but the way that they they interact with the others could damage the rest of the team. A clear example, if you have a football team, they are really good players. But there are some players that add more value to the other players. And there are some players that they played really well, but they killed the  other players. Then this is really important. And for that, you need really to understand what does the strength or weakness on your team and what this person complements.

 

So how do you spot people like that?

 

I think once again, you have to make a lot of analysis of your people’s strengths. Weakness. What? I’m starting for yourself. What are you good at with your battles?

 

You’re saying  analysis. Are these psychology tests like what are you doing?

 

We are doing psychology test. We’re doing a lot of working dynamics, a lot of team work where you can see how people work.

 

So like workshops,

 

I think there are a lot of nowadays, there’s a lot of ways to analyze. How is your personality. There are basic things from like the colors, the red, the blue way. That’s one example. But there are a lot of things. Is whatever you use, you have to use it in a way that you’re consistent all around. You can not compare with you with red and with the other with another system. Is use a system that you believe, check that is right. And then use it

 

to choose a personalities. And then, OK, I get that you you implement, which you find works. And then based on that, you look at complementary skills that fit the team. What happens if you do that recruitments and like a bad person slips, then

 

you have to make for the fairness of the company. You have to make a fast decision.

 

Can you give an example? Has that ever happened?

 

I think that I give you an example on Asics. Unfortunately, we make some mistakes. Yes. And it was one case, one guy that the first day was doing one illegal behavior. And we have to execute very fast because the company don’t allow illegal behaviors. Then. But all the rest of the people were reinforced because we were following our same mission vision and we were really thinking our culture we didn’t accept that. That reinforced the theme.

 

So, OK, so he did something bad. You say execute fast. Are we talking like hours or 10 days? Weeks.

 

I mean, if you see something that these really strong hours, if you see that something that he can improve, you have to give feedback immediately. You have to improve and give the choice to people to do it. What they’re telling is at the end is first thing is you have to have a strong process and all this compression to start because we were telling they make mistakes that way. They make mistakes because suddenly you have to hire hundred people. And when you make hundred people hired without processes, without role-play, a lot of things that you can make in a person and you hire all these series knight, I hire this person. The consequences can be really high. But what I’m telling is may not the grow the stage startups. They have to be prepared to be in growth. Means they have to decide how is their hiring process to avoid these mistakes. If there is a mistake. What is the process to solve this person, to make them on the right track? Or if it’s not possible, how to be out of the company. Then for me, this is crucial to think that is not having the money, is not hiring the people, is how you do it. It’s even more important that these two factors.

 

Do you advise founders to then do it themselves or hire someone experienced or external?

 

I think there are two things on this area. The external experience and unprocessed not the strongest side, it’s really, really highly needed. At the same time, it’s your company. In my two four roles in Asics, I had been in the last meeting getting the yes or no of each person because at the end that could change the culture of the company. That means that you have to be no processes, means that with the time your team is able to do all of this. Yes. But in a startup that at the beginning there are so many new persons, founders has to be involved. It’s part of the company on his part. That’s why their role is also changing. They have no so much time if they have to hire. They have less time.

 

So have you see… I can imagine as innovation, you’ve probably seen a lot of startups go through. Have you seen any really good stories and really bad stories that you could share?

 

I think that the bad stories always is, uh, Founders’, uh, battles within them that they they broken. They have to split the company. That’s the worse.

 

Why do you think it happened?

 

I think because this is like a marriage before marrying, you have to know who you’re going to work with and you have to see if they complement. You have to understand what is a strength on the weakness. And it is the same that I was telling for hiring a person even is the most important. If each one if they do not have let’s say they have personally these that cannot match. This is going to happen. And you have to think that in a startup, it’s extremely stress.By definition, startup equals stress. That’s right. Definition. You cannot change that even for because this standard is going well or because the stuff is going but is a stress. All of us, when we are put under stress, we our personality goes to the limit. Then we do not have to hide this. This is like people only making contracts or not. These are the same as you may contract for work, for where things go wrong, for part for or for founders the same. You have to analyze when things go wrong. How is going to have both and then it will happen. Then you have to be ready for that.

 

So you pretty much advise to do something. Team building activity maybe where people are put in the highest amounts of stress before you start the company.

 

That could be one choice. Another typical two professionals that they put on the table. When you’re under stress, what’s gonna happen? And don’t lie to yourself. Means are you willing to receive. Always. Always. There are things in life that you will not like. But if you know it and you don’t like yourself and you accept it when it comes, you have to tell. OK, I know that I accept it is not that they like it, but they have to accept it. Then I think the worst thing is feel that is when to be honeymoon. Every every time is going to be nice. We’re going to be in love. That’s not life. Then I think startups has to make first this first commitment. This is my weakness. I will try to solve it. This my weakness. I will try to solve it. But just engage you have to be patient on that side. Okay.

 

So, okay, back to you. You finish your three year stand. What happened? Did you finish it or did Asics  recruit you?

 

I was approach. It took me a while to make that change. Because it was not active looking then.

 

What do you mean you were approached like somebody on LinkedIn messages, you or…

 

A headhunter approached me and then, uh, um, for me was starting again from a scrap northwest scrap because it was a bigger company. But starting to creating was okay is like creating a new startup. But, uh. Okay. That that’s a little bit my role sometimes.

 

So weren’t you. I see this a lot and I have to be honest. For me it’s also a little bit harder because I’ve started my company six years ago now and then became the scale up. And then we started this event and it became really big, really fast as well. But after a while, it kind of gets tiring. Then after a while, you’ve had, you know, the family business and it is. Weren’t you tired of doing it again or how? What was your thought process?

 

I think he’s not tired. The word is that you learn and you know what you want to do and what you want you don’t want to do. I think there is in any job in the life, there’s good things and bad things. That’s not the perfect thing. But there are things that for you unbury as you know it and you try to avoid it. I think that’s what will give experience. I think one of the problem of the society nowadays is that all young guys has so much knowledge, even more, than older people. The only difference is experience. Experiences is like a machine learning. You have a lot of data or not that the older people has more sets of data.  and algorithm has evolved a little bit. But knowledge wise is not the issue. But data experience gave you knowledge what you have to do and you don’t have to do.

 

So you are more eager to use that new acquired knowledge to implement into Asics?

 

Yes. And I think the key thing on this kind of things is your mentality. And my mentality is always is if I like the project, I put all my skin on the game and and I do it. But that’s for me. It’s important to choose the right.

 

Right. Oh, is it about Asics that attracted you?

 

I think Asics  funny things and personal things is when I was really young, I have a T-shirt from Asics, but when I was in, in, in, in Spain people was calling all O-asics instead of Asics and I was thinking, oh these brands in Spain is not represented in the way that they deserve.Then I like this challenge, then I take the challenge and we were lot of years growing double digit and moving from the third rand to the third brand has been very interesting until I moved to the new position that even has been more amazing.

 

What were the steps you joined Asics  because you weren’t yet. What were the positions or were you doing to get promoted or to get it from 18 to third?

 

I mean, basically is in Asics  eight best four positions. The first was  managing only Spain. After managing a Spain, I took  Portugal. Portugal was a country that was losing money.

 

Was it Spain and Portugal or just

 

For Spain and Portugal? And then what we did is put in one year to make profit that that country.

 

So. But what’s your position then?

 

I was general manager of a Spain. Then I took general msanager  for Spain and Portugal. And then, uh, after, uh, several years, then four years ago, I think also France as part of the business, it was a country who has interesting and different culture, a much more bigger subsidiary than Spain and Portugal. But for me was very interesting again to learn things, learn different ways to the things learn how you. When, uh, their organization is much, much bigger. How you can, uh, maximize the knowledge around the people. How you can make use

 

How>

 

using the senior people in the way that you can to maximize that. And that’s not easy. But I think that the first thing is understand different cultures. And that’s not the basic assumption. It’s not the same working with Japanese, that working with French, that working with Portuguese or with the Spanish is very different. And I give you a personal example. When I arrive France, I was perceived  to be a bit aggressive with their spend and not as perceived as aggressive. And the reason is because they are a culture that when you start meeting, you start making an informal five, 10 minute. How’s the day? How was work? And I was out of my home three days and I want to go very efficient. And I was perceived as aggressive. Then I started to realize these make meetings much more efficient because that five, 10 minutes make them connect. And then they were more more active to work. Then I think he’s not good or but he’s understanding what is the others. Understand how do people go and then tried to use all resources and what was all these games. Because what we are telling,  how you make more efficient this. And I think the good thing on having three countries is that you have really good people in each country. How you can use the brain of the people on the other country on what and how you do it without losing the local knowledge. And I think that was the key thing.

 

How is it personally managing three countries? Because you start with Spain, which is already a pretty big task. And then you add Portugal. You just you pretty much say the challenge is I just added Portugal to that and then just added France for them. Your schedule must have been crazy.

 

I think the first thing is you need to have a good team without a team. That’s impossible, isn’t it? One person is one team and then that makes a difference. Second thing is this is like making a sport. You can run 5k, then 10k, half marathon and a marathon. The more you train, you can more save the first day you take that size. Maybe you can do it. But for me, team is the most important. And with a good team, you can do whatever it is in life. Second thing is training help you to to be more ready. And what you’re telling me is I do not agree with The thing I think, is  a mentality thing easier if what is your role to do everything or your role is to lead people, to help people support people and to make a good distressingly to help them. Well. That’s the red. The change in the role of the leader. I mean, if you want to do everything like you were doing before. Check every ad, check every offer a check. That’s not possible. You have to trust new people. That’s why you have to have good people. And you have to make them direction. You have to help them. Then your role is different then. I think if I hear what you tell me, I can perceive that it’s a person that do not make their change on what is their role.

 

So what do you look for in your team? Personality wise or skills?

 

I think it’s silly. The first thing is I look that they’re good persons. Because there is one thing that goes bit of trust. If you don’t trust somebody you are protecting yourself, then you’re not speedy. Then I need to trust my team. That’s the most important because that gives you speed. And that led me a lot of free time. The second thing is the skills, of course. And on personality, both things are important because complementary of personality. There is people that is very detail oriented people that is visionary people that like repetitive task. You need all of these join. Of the knowledge that they have.

 

And then how do you keep those type of high profile people interested in working with you for a longer period? Because I can imagine for them, because this is now a trend that is happening every year or two. The new generation, my generation is trying to find the next thing, the next thing. So I noticed that job hopping is a common trend to experience the same. How do you keep the your people engaged? I you will see I always try to put in three because it’s my secret thing. But the three boxes, the first thing is you need to have an interesting job and what it means is no money or we follow a process that the first year we learn. Second year we think on third year we start to be boring. Then this cycle, I think it’s in life and you have to think how you’re going to give more motivation to these people. Second thing is the company itself. If it’s a company that they really appreciate people inside must be good excitement you make. It keeps also. I give you an example. In Asics, we have gym, we have psychology, we have yoga. We have thousand of small things that make their life more comfortable. But this is a double site first. They are blessing because they are less stressed. But they want to keep because they feel happy to come to work. When these you… When you do not have this far of let’s say normally if you analyze the hours that you have in your life, you are… More hours in the work that you hope. Because when you are in your home, you are sleeping. And rest of the hours. I had so many and you have the weekend. Then if that hours are really bad for you, that’s not good. Then having a job that is compelling. Having a place where you can feel comfortable, feel like home. And knowing that it’s not a charity that is a company means that you have to be a company. And third is make challenging an ambition and direction. All of us. I was telling myself, I motivate myself because I have a clear target. I have a clear direction. People has to have an ambition to do something. And I think with these new young generation, if it’s no sense, if it’s a company that it’s only for money they will not do, it has to be a sense on the back. In our case, that is anima sana in corpore sano, very… We want society to be better for sport. That’s a good thing.

 

So then how do you. So now we’re obviously in Asics. So how do you implement that in Asics where you really I mean, that’s a bold statement. And if you look at the other companies that are the other big brands, I can’t imagine all of them are trying to do something similar. But for me, Asics , I remember my first memory of Asics  is my uncle who was like a big brother to me, said if you’re buying running shoes, drop all the rest, you gotta get Asics . So that’s my earliest memory. No less than ten years old. So my mind is like Asics  is always a good running shoes. But you’re saying like you’re implementing all of this for your employees. This new generation isn’t just about the running shoes. Are you doing charities or like? I can assume only the yoga isn’t enough for them to come. Everybody’s doing yoga. No

 

Reply. Yes. We’ll have some actions that we give shoes and we’ll have some shows in the UK that we’re doing. But I think what is important is that’s for me, that’s a personal opinion, not a company, a personal opinion. I hate when companies does things for marketing purpose. I think if you really do things because you’re really doing with good sense, it doesn’t matter if you do it in a charity, you do it internally, whatever. I give you an example. If you really want to be perceived as the best company in running, you have two ways to do it. One ways to make a big marketing. make me feel that you are the Coca-Cola because you have a brand here or really make a good product. I believe if  you have really good proof that you believe even you do a bad marketing sometimes, you have more.  more aligned with what I think. For all the rest is the same. If you do things you do not have to the things because it’s a marketing or a bluff, you have to believe it. And sometimes there are some companies that make clean washing and they do a lot of charities or lot of things. And after they would make things that are not legal, then I think you have to align everything and do things that are authentic and real, because with the  society, everybody will find the reality.

 

Yeah, especially now with the whole PR disasters are happening every year

 

Is better not to the things that do the things to cover what you are doing wrong.But that that’s my personal opinion.

 

So let’s go deeper into then your ASIC experience. You started you started growing. What happened after friends joined?

 

We were growing and then Europe was making a changing. The former Italy want to organize and they were proposing me several positions. But I was very clear that they want this new position. I think Asics , as you said, has been amazing. Developing the best shoes in the market, no doubt. But the reality of the market is different. The reality is that even Google says that they have more good engineers outside Google, inside Google, because the wall is so big that you have to look outside. Then my vision was, I want to look outside. We’ll have a good department inside. That is the best use. But we’ll have to look outside of what is going to bring us consumer preference in the future for the sound mind. Somebody and I was lucky that we have a CEO that believe that and we create this department. So it’s basically what we are doing is one of the things that we’re doing is we’re collaborating with the startups. We didn’t know we finished just the second batch of taxation burden costing and then containing Japanese mean the tipping point. And we want to be the tipping point of the startups that they’re on and they want to have a growth face.

 

See, you started pretty much an acceleration program within Asics and you attract sports startups.

 

What weattrat is everything that is inside our name. Anima sana in corpore sano means everything that is inside the  mind,  we are not so focused on shoes or whatever, but we focused anything that it’s a sport and health and wellness.

 

And then they go through an acceleration program and then they can roll out internally through your employee.

 

Yes, basically what we make is three areas of working. One idea working is the stand the one of social. We work with our business for that. We have entrepreneurs in residence that used to be successful. Is that the founders that help all of us to do? Plus mentors plus on the business side. Second parties, we focus on the people side to our experience in growing business. We really focus on them, on the founders, how they have to evolve, understand the face and what they need to be prepared to scale. Hiring methods, blah, blah, blah, blah. They are not… We do not tell ours. We make them think what they need to do to make it happen. And the third, not least, is working with Asics  and working with Asics could be using the knowledge of Asics, could be using the distribution of Asics , could be that Asics  is a it is a customer of them. Could be that Asics  sales their brother. Could be that depends.

 

So both question why would you do that if… Why not just create challenges where startups can just sign up and work with Asics  or something. Or why not just have a venture fund that invests in startups. Why create an acceleration program.

 

OK, good question. And it’s not a perfect answer for this. But I will tell you, my, my, my, my logic behind first thing is as a corporation, you have to understand what you can help on what you can help. I will put three areas and then I will develop. Second thing is you have to make a collaboration with a corporation is extremely difficult. And third, is there so much data that they have a good product but they finance on the back or the business model is not ready and they can fail? If I mix all of this, what I mean is imagine for a corporation that they put you money. Okay, I can lose the money. That’s a problem. But I put my reputation, my image and your startup close, broken and in the middle of… That’s a problem. And the first thing is, as a corporation, we are highly interesting that the startup belongs as much years as we can. Not for buying the startup. But if we make a collaboration. If the startup is successful, we’re going to have a long term collaboration. Then that’s number one of the acceleration thinking. Second thing is, and making a project with a corporation is not easy. I always tell the same, but there are two. Theoretically to make successful a project with a startup, a corporation, you have to make two things. You have to reduce the speed of the startup. You have to increase the speed of the corporation. Because if you try corporation toward the speed of the startup or start with the speed of the corporation, these are going to be a disaster. Because start corporations by essence cannot go at the speed of other startups. If they go at the speed of the corporation, they will not be a startup anymore then doing this it’s a lot of psychology, a lot of… And you can do that during a session working within four months. You can make like the Google translator of the corporation and understand that. And you can speak both languages and you can tell this side and this side and try to connect. If you make a challenge, they can one day they see every one week and they speak different languages.

 

So the accelerator program is actually that’s thing where you slow down startups and speed up to the core. That’s one part. And the last but not least is you have to think on what you can help. In our case, what we saw is we can we don’t one or we try not to help too much on the problem. We want to start ups with product market fit that they have. But we have contacts, we have network, we have experience in the sector and we have reach. And then these in that challenge, you cannot do it normally when you make a challenge. It’s a very early stage thing. And if you want to do marketing, it’s incredible. Would you make a lot of noise. You make a lot of marketing, and that’s really good. But from until it happens, it does not match. In our case, what we thought is where we can help. Okay, you’re almost ready to scale. We can help you. That’s not the challenge that because a challenge normally is an early stage. Second thing is this process is very consuming, time consuming for both sides. Then let’s make it work. And third on the list is we want discolouration to last a lot of years. Then it will help you to have the right finance, will help you to have the right business model, will help you to be ready for growth with people. That’s welcome to the logic of this.

 

That’s why so many corporates are rolling on accelerator program.

 

That’s that’s assuming they assume. I don’t think they’d make these analogies, I think each one may go on as this is our analysis. This is my point of view. I don’t think so, because if you see taxation program a lot of companies, what it does is they hire to a third party and they use it as marketing. In our case, what we did is we do a team that has knowledge of both parts and then we hire people external that help us with the start the ball.

 

Then I saw a lot of programs. If you analyze, they are not so many successful on the wall. But the main reason is because as as I was saying very well in the beginning, you have to make the strategy that is good for you. And in our case, we saw, OK. It’s very difficult to make a collaboration. We don’t want to make it as marketing bluff, because if not, that’s very easy. You bring  but that’s not the proposal.We really want to find the long term view.

 

So what is the most exciting startup there with, uh, that came through the program?

 

I think we have to understand how we did it. Is the logic on the on the acceleration program, because they are where…

 

Do you equity invest as well?

 

We have a small small business, but we’re really a startup friendly.

 

So. So you take a small equity do you also give money or no.

 

And we are able to make full up. But this is not the most important for them. And we have to be careful because sometimes we can be a barrier. But if we take the logic of a normalization,  is what they need is to have a lot of startups, because by this, this takes five will die. La, la, la, la. We try not to be in that statistic. And now our ideas, which is five to six per batch until now we make five. But we have a limit of six. And we really customize it. And we put a lot of effort. But it’s like hiring. Yeah. We make the same concept is the business of hiring is really, really demanding. We check the people side. We check the business side. We check the product, Croatian side. And we take the ones that for us as more probabilities to succeed. Sometimes you have the fascination. We have really no motive. But it’s more difficult to make a project. Sometimes it’s more up to market. You don’t see it’s so innovative because they’re in the growth estates and AirBandB, be 10 years old, does not exist in the mind of the people here. And now it’s common. Then… But you can’t help more an AirBandB than that 10 years ago. Then what is important is to understand corporations. They have to understand why they want it. It’s a marketing would proposed. Composition for young people that are innovative. That’s good. But if you really want to innovate, you have to think which tools you have and how you use it to make it happen.

 

Okay, see that now we are getting into the story. So that’s your current position, right. And you do that in all the regions that you mentioned in the beginning?

 

Yes, we have the office here in Barcelona. Now is the second year. And we are like in a startup means that we can be here or tomorrow we can stop and do another thing and and change because that is the role that we decide. Startup is one of the things that we are doing. And second thing is we make to test for the corporation. The first test is we are testing business models that in a normal corporation you can test, for example, subscription and things like that because they are using we create external internal team and we put it estimates that in the program to test with work. That is one of the things that we were doing. And the last test that we did is even more different is normal in corporation we have divisions with a one small division. We take it from the normal business and we put it looks right there. That why we did that, because when you are as more division in a big corporation, nobody cares about you. But sometimes they do not have the flexi that. Then what we are trying to make that mentality of making things happen in things, then they are test and we know which way to work. We don’t know. We don’t know if we’re going to live for a lot of time or we are a startup and maybe tomorrow with a group in the boardroom or maybe tomorrow we decide to change of job. That’s life. And we’re on the roll and we accept it.

 

So we’re almost coming to the end. And then what is your biggest lesson out of all this?

 

I think you can learn from every side. I learn a lot from my startup and a lot of things that can be applied in corporations. And they learn a lot of things that from corporations that the startups can can leverage and take. But what I realize is main of the problems that people is not taking the time to analyze and is neglecting. They’re like no no. I cannot work as a corporation. No, no, I cannot work as a startup. I think willing, is willing to change is the first step to doing it. Then I think these two years with the Statham’s, I see that companies with one zero zero zero one percent of our resources are able to do things. And on the other side, they see that as a corporation, we can give a value that we have to rent it. Our brand is rented and we do not realize how much value it has. I have a brand value of working in Asics . I will have another brand value out of Asics. And that’s a reality whena startup collaborate with a brand. They really can. It’s more important than the money that the project be able to use that credibility. That’s the most important thing that could have a startup from a corporation.

 

I agree. And I think that’s actually a really good closing statement to give. Any last words towards founders or startups in the factory?

 

I think they they they. I’ve been now two years dealing with them. I admire the energy they have. I admire what they do. I think they have to take if from what they learn. Three big things. The first thing is keep pushing. It was one guy that was telling how many times you have to try one thing to make it happen. And he was telling until you achieve it. The second thing is, listen, a lot. Don’t think that you know everything and then make your own decision. That’s the third thing, is it will come a lot of people that will tell you that the clue, whatever, but they’re not doing their consultants for you. You have to decide. But first, listen. Then if you persist, you listen and then you make your own decisions. I think that will succeed.

 

Thank you. Thank you so much.

 

You’re welcome.

 

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